Dies Snarkae [undated]

[sythyry]

Hello, Sythyry! I am an offworlder, and I have recently finished reading the entirety of your journal, and many of the replies therein. I would like to write some messages to you that may not be relevant to the most recent entry in your journal, but may be interesting for you to hear. As near as I can tell, most of the people who have replied to your journal seem to have come from my world. As such, you are probably one of the few Primes -- or even sentients -- with a reliable connection to otherworld information.

[Bard notes: "Remember that Sythyry is naive, prejudiced against nonprimes (and various kinds of primes), more inclined to produce snarky comments than think carefully about things, rather defensive when zie feels zie is being attacked, touchy about things that make sense in zir culture even when they do not in ours, and not a vehicle for zir author's opinions." Zie is being somewhat less accurate than usual in this note. Well ... actually zie got the impression that you were scorning zir whole world, so zie got downright pissy by the end. Zie's new to the internet, after all. Sorry about that! -bb]

Well, I hardly know what to say to a monster who has read my entire life's story before even being introduced! Um ... perhaps... It is a pleasure to make your acquaintance as well? Please, in the interest of fairness, would you be so kind as to tell me your entire life's story?

Have you ever thought how much this might benefit you? Do you know anyone, other than the gods of your world, who has a reliable means of communication with otherworlders?

I imagine that Glikkonen does, since zie built my means for doing so. I'm not sure about anyone else in particular, but it would hardly surprise if Esory had some sort of peculiar device for it in her basement built by her five-times-great grandmother; her whole family tradition involves Locador, after all. I'm not quite sure how to bring up the subject.

For people I don't actually know -- well, surely most of the greater elementals and angels would, since they're mostly from outside my world, I think. I imagine that any of the various Locador wizards who bodily trotted off to other worlds could arrange some reliable form of chatting -- a messenger service if nothing else.

That's all I can think of at the moment.

And, as an aside, I am uncertain about this matter of reliability. I cannot see you -- I cannot sense you -- I cannot tell, save by your words, what sort of an entity you might be. Perhaps, somewhere in the murky worlds outside of the World Tree, there could be an entity capable of imperfect honesty, or one who might find it amusing to play tricks on an inexperienced Zi Ri. I can find such entities in my own social set, after all -- why not outside of my world as well?

Consider the people who wrote the Water Tree stories. They show how popular fiction about other, outlandish worlds is to Primes... now, imagine if you were to take up writing, creating stories of things of universal interest to Primes (stories of love, loss, death, birth, and the interactions amongst people and other people, as well as the world around them) set in a world not unlike the one we represent.

I have considered them -- I have considered them to be scoundrels, to be poor at thinking through the consequences of their choices, to be flimsy liars and insipid writers. I think that joining their ranks would take me thirty thousand years to live down!

Besides, I have no desire to write whatsoever. I'm sure I should be quite dreadful at it.

[Bard wonders why, if this is true, Sythyry has (1) written about two hundred thousand words + html tags in under a year, and (2) made a magic pen as zir most recent Enchantment exercise. -bb]

Imagine if you could combine that with some of our knowledge on aspects of commerce that seem to have not been developed on your world -- knowledge of distribution, of marketing, of efficient ways to set up an organization, ways of making and investing money. Now, think of how much money you could make doing this!

Hmph. You have read my entire life's story -- do I seem so very concerned with making money? I should hope not! I do hope not! If I am concerned with some matter of personal gain, I do hope that I have managed to convey my true intent on the topic, which is to become sufficiently good at Enchantment that I can command respectable prices for my works and not have to think about money again. In particular, to be able to construct devices of substantial value and skill and power, and thereby be an valued and respectable gentleman-wizard.

And as an immortal, think of the possible social and political changes you could make by introducing the possibility of different types of societies to your culture. From what I have read of your journal and of other resources I have found on the nature of your world, it seems that many ideas that could improve the standard of living of primes on the World Tree that have been developed here have not been developed in your world yet.

Well, I can hardly debate with you on the topic of ideas which nobody in my world has though of. What might be an example of such a thing?

In any case, I am only interested in making one particular change: that one being, well, the greater social allowances made for transaffectionate Orren and Zi Ri.

You have enough time to learn about us, to come up with well-reasoned opinions on aspects of our culture, and decide for yourself whether this or that particular cultural or governmental concept would be beneficial to release on the World Tree.

I'm afraid that my translation may be imperfect, and may, perhaps, introduce subtexts and shades of meaning which are not strictly intended. Do I read this properly as saying, "The cultures and governments of the World Tree are vile and vulgar, and should be tossed aside in favor of the wholly superior ones available on my home world?"

For example, you have probably noticed that many of us have rather strange opinions on nobility and on treating many who your culture considers inferior as equals. We have these opinions because one of the particular nations on our world, the "American" nation, holds these ideals... and these ideals, amongst others, has led us to be the most powerful nation currently on our world, and thus the one whose citizens are most likely to have the advanced tools to interact with your world in this sort of journal.

My non-girlfriend who changes her name frequently has similar opinions -- as does my roommate Agrimony, in principle, though he seems rather feeble about them in practice.

One of the things we have learned is that, especially when transportation, cultural crossover, and trade from area to area is relatively fast, reliable, and cheap, that certain systems of government and commerce become more effective than others. One such example is that hereditary nobility, as well as the structured layers of power that come with the existance of a noble class, is relatively inefficient. Now, the World Tree might not have fast means of travel or communications or commerce from area to area, but as these systems develop, --and they will, and you'll probably be there to see it-- your world will probably come to see that small, fractured city-states bickering amongst each other with noble families ruling them isn't the best way to do things. Now imagine if you could influence some of the changes that might change the face of your world? How do you feel about that?

I feel that reviving the Calanchian Empire would not be a good idea. For one thing, Yylhauntra would surely scold me for it. Since zie did not scold me much about loving an Orren, I feel that I am living on borrowed unscoldedness here.

On the topic of small bickering city-states, and somewhat on the topic of nobility in general: you must remember that the World Tree is a fairly dangerous place for us. The Verticals are wild, even in ancient Vheshrame -- we have a whole nendrai and a partial chromodon living down there, for gods' sake! -- and we must be sure to be able to defend ourselves.

(Clearing them out is not a viable option, even if it could be done. The gods would simply make more monsters, worse ones. Annoying gods!)

Now, the system of small bickering city-states is a crucial one to this. When our states contend against each other, our heroes become skillful and mighth and numerous. Now, these are the very heroes we rely on to protect us from the Verticals-beasts and whatever other insidious things the gods come up with.

And if we tried to centralize more? Some cities would be stripped of their heroes, and left for the monsters to eat. It is important that each city have its own power. Even the Duke of Vheshrame, who craves power more than most, is building a league rather than a kingdom.

Or, for something more harmless, what of all the culinary arts that knowledge from another world could bring! You could start your own restaurant making items completely unique to your world! You could start major trends! You could get foods named after you! Wouldn't that be fun? Or, since we have literature that gives at least a basic idea on what the current ability of magic is in your world, you might want to ask us for new and creative (but not necessarily complex or difficult) ideas on how to use magic!

I am unsure about the prospects of importing proper ingredients. For one instance, I understand that the dried chilis in your world are seedpods, not flowers. I can't imagine that they would taste the same -- to my primary clientele, which is, of course, Cani.

And the concept of having a food named after me ... children all over the world asking for a "Sythyry Pizza" seems rather, well, cannibalistic.

Or, if you don't want to change anything just yet, knowing about it can't hurt! Knowing about a world that doesn't have (visible) bickering gods, and whose reality is not governed by fickle elementals, but by natural laws that can be uncovered by forms of natural science mostly unknown on your world can't be detrimental to learn! It also seems that, based on some of the past history of the replies to this journal, you have at least rudimentary access to our largest compilation of knowledge and lore on our world -- the Internet. Think about what that might mean to you, should you decide to use it!

Well, it might be detrimental if I spend too much time on it and thereby neglect studies of more personal relevance. I am not sure what point studying such an unrealistic sort of place might have to me.

Iska, now... I imagine that mathematics is the same anywhere, and she might learn something of value to her. She's welcome to it, too, if it encourages her to move away from Vheshrame.

If there's anything else in common between our two worlds that can be discovered simply in words, I don't know it. For example -- what use to me is it to read the great classics of your world's literature? When I quote from them to my friends, I shall be given a gift of blank stares and nervous tittering suggesting that I am insane.

Why don't you ask us to elaborate on these topics, or about this world? It will be fascinating, at least!

Well ... I shall do it! Please elaborate upon these topics, your world, or other things upon which you wish to elaborate!

Comments

[gavinfox.livejournal.com]

'I'm afraid that my translation may be imperfect, and may, perhaps, introduce subtexts and shades of meaning which are not strictly intended. Do I read this properly as saying, "The cultures and governments of the World Tree are vile and vulgar, and should be tossed aside in favor of the wholly superior ones available on my home world?"'

No... I more meant that, "There are other systems of government and aspects of culture that have different strengths and weaknesses than the ones that exist on your world, which may be worth studying and may be worth writing about and possibly publishing in such a way so that the idea of them at least exists on your world."

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

Ah ... um ... which ones are you thinking of?

About government...

[gavinfox.livejournal.com]

Well, when I think of nobles and city-states, I tend to think of what was known as the system of 'feudalism' in our history. At a time in our history when travel and communication and long-distance governance was difficult, the land was divided up rather thoroughly amongst large plots of land that were owned and governed by nobles, usually called Dukes, who collected taxes in their areas, and then these nobles further divided into areas who were given to nobles, sometimes called Barons, who swore an oath of fealty to the dukes. Sometimes there would be a King at the top of this to whom the dukes swore fealty. Sometimes there were many steps in a pyramid of power, and the actual reality of who should give military and economic aid to whom was not as clean as the supposed 'pyramid of power' would suggest. Also, at the bottom of the pyramid were the people who worked the land, who rarely had many rights, and were often considered lesser people than nobles in many ways.

In our culture, feudalism started to decline when society stopped being such an agrarian society, and became more and more money based, with more liquid assets, rather than a heredity title or ownership of land providing the basis of power.

Is this similar to certain patterns in your society?

Re: About government...

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

The general structure seems about right, but only about.

Every citizen's official primary allegiance is to the
city-state. I suppose there might be someone or sometwo
with oaths to particular people, but it's not an ordinary
sort of thing.

Also, at the bottom of the pyramid were the people who
worked the land, who rarely had many rights, and were
often considered lesser people than nobles in many
ways.

Well, we don't have that many farmers -- I imagine
there are as many cityfolk as farmers. And farmers aren't
generally poor or powerless. Casamint may be the baron of
Dorly, but he's not the richest person in Dorly; Skirret the
maker of famous cheeses is that. I should think that the
poorest people around live in cities. Or in the country but
not in villages. I don't know, though.

And commoners certainly have fewer legal rights than
nobility. A commoner wishing to take someone else to court
might have his case delayed a dozen times, or two dozen, if
lots of nobles are suing people. This could delay it by
many weeks, I suppose.

Our society seems to be based in several sorts of power, I
suppose: magical force, money, political power, nobility and
land ownership, skill. I am working on the first, with
some help from low-grade nobility. People get various
degrees of power in a variety of ways -- Strenata's family,
for example, is moderately powerful in Vheshrame, but
certainly not noble, rich, or land-owning. Esory's family
isn't noble or land-owning, and is quite powerful.

[OOC - Ketheria isn't feudal. It's more like 18th century
England. The fact that everywhere is perpetual frontier or
dangerous border is one big variation on that. In some
places, most titles are purely markers of power, rather than
sources of power -- effectively, when you get rich, you buy
a title and throw the associated big public party.
Vheshrame's not like that.
-bb]

Re: About government...

[gavinfox.livejournal.com]

I will have to research what you said to find as close of an analogy to your system of government. The nearest I can find is the period in a country called "England" in what we called the 18th century, which was a time of drastic changes in government, bickering between branches of government, (especially the king and the parliament, or the branch of government that makes laws), it was a time when the powers of centralized government began to be restricted and codified, and it was also a time when issues of the centralized church and the question of what doctrine people are required to pursue came to a head.

*reads some more*

I think what yotogi is laughing about is how unlikely my statement "...and possibly publishing in such a way so that the idea of them at least exists on your world." is to be truthful. I daresay he probably thinks it should say, "...and publishing so as to cause people to come to the conclusion that the existing government needs to be replaced, and causing people to thereby replace it."

Looking back at it, I see his point. From what I know, the idea that anyone can, officially, have as many rights as a noble and that power is something that any individual should be able to gain on their own merit and not by means of their birth is a strong one... one which has caused civil wars (generally ending with the nobility declining and, as a matter of fact, individuals gaining equal rights and official gubernatorial power no longer be given out on basis of birth).

I don't know. I don't want you to start a war. Maybe I want to warn you that, "this is a possible and fairly likely trend, expect it, and expect a war to come when people think of these ideas and nobility doesnt want to give up their hereditory power. With knowledge of a fairly likely future, you can take steps to make sure that you aren't harmed if/when this happens, or to let yourself play a legendary part of it when it does happen."

What do you think would happen when (if?) all primes had equal rights and legal protections under the law, and a noble title was *only* a fancy name and nothing more?

Re: About government...

[yotogi.livejournal.com]

Not exactly. What I was laughing about (and still am) is the idea that anyone on the Tree would care about these other forms of government, beyond the initial novelty that extradimensional entities carry on this way. (And even that's probably hitting a narrow demographic.) I'm no sociologist, but it certainly seems to me that the WT is lacking a disenfranchised class that would consider such a thing as devaluation of title interesting.

I don't think it would cause a war. I think it would cause a few people to say, "Huh. That's interesting. Those aliens sure are strange." And that'd be the end of it.

Re: About government...

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

Ketherian culture, on the World Tree, certainly does consider itself superior to all others. You can see that in the way that Sythyry talks -- and by now zie's probably more open-minded than most Ketherians.

There is enough mobility available so that most primes in Ketheria would rather keep titles around (on the grounds that they or a child or relative have a chance to get one) than eliminate them. This is especially true in places where nobility is a status marker and titles are mostly for sale. But it's still true even in Vheshrame -- probably half the people chasing Crown Prince Nestrune are hoping to marry him and become the next Duchess or Duke of Daukhrame. Strenata's anti-noble sentiments haven't caught on very well.

But yeah, offworld ideas would generally be discounted on the grounds that they come from far away, and were first thought of by monsters. No matter how good the ideas were in the first place.

Insular twits, primes.

Re: About government...

[yotogi.livejournal.com]

I do have to wonder how many other people have caught the indirect "Kether" and "tree" pun. But I digress.

I'd agree that they can be jerky, though maybe not for the same reasons; I'm not sure all or any of these ideas would translate terribly well. It is a very different place, after all. Although now that you mention it (below,) Grand Padishah Yotogi... hmmm... wonder what the going exchange rate is.

Re: About government...

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

What's indirect about having Kether at the top of a tree? Especially given what's overhead there?

Re: About government...

[yotogi.livejournal.com]

Indirect in that it's not explicitly stated, unlike most puns, is what I meant. I think it's funny!

Re: About government...

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

Nobody's come bouncing around me demanding I describe the base of the Tree and name it Malkuthia, at least.

Re: About government...

[yotogi.livejournal.com]

It doesn't quite roll off the tongue, no.

Re: About government...

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

What do you think would happen when (if?) all primes had equal rights and legal protections under the law, and a noble title was *only* a fancy name and nothing more?

Then I think you'd be living in the Transwynt, in outer
Aradrueia. That's how they do things there. Well, Duke is
still a real title, but nothing else is. You can buy, say,
"Grand Padishah" for a few thousand lozens.

From what I know, the idea that anyone can, officially,
have as many rights as a noble and that power is something
that any individual should be able to gain on their own
merit and not by means of their birth is a strong one... one
which has caused civil wars

So ... if I were a Cani, say, and I did something remarkable
and become rich and powerful and mighty and great, I
couldn't leave anything to my children? I can see how such
a political system might lead to civil wars! I can't
imagine any parent standing for it.

Why should everyone have as many rights as a count? What
sort of chaos would it be if anyone could demand that anyone
else's home be demolished? A count is raised from birth to
be very careful about using this right. A lesser-ranked
person probably would not be -- and there's always
some annoyed neighbor with a vendetta.

Why should everyone have as much money as a rich merchant?
Why should everyone have as much magical force as Glikkonen?
Why should everyone have as much martial prowess as a great
hero? Such concepts are ridiculous! They cannot be!
Similarly, why should everyone have as many rights as a
noble? Ridiculous!

this is a possible and fairly likely trend, expect it,
and expect a war to come when people think of these ideas
and nobility doesnt want to give up their hereditory
power. With knowledge of a fairly likely future, you can
take steps to make sure that you aren't harmed if/when this
happens, or to let yourself play a legendary part of it when
it does happen.

[Bard's quick analysis: it's not happening that way any time
soon, because there are different pressures on World Tree
society than on terrestrial, and they're shoving it in a
different direction. Some of these pressures are external
-- the constant trouble with borders and monsters across
them, say, and the fact that the gods seem quite happy to
increase this pressure whenever the primes get too much of
an upper hand. Some are internal -- the physics (well,
mostly magic theory) of the World Tree vastly favors a
society with a small number of extremely skilled people over
one with a large number of moderately skilled people, which
encourages the concentration of power. -bb]

[And there's a pretty large and reasonably happy middle
class: the gap between baron and commoner in Vheshrame is
much smaller than in medieval France, for example. If you
have the World Tree sourcebook, read the chapter on
Treverre. -bb]

Re: About government...

[gavinfox.livejournal.com]

"So ... if I were a Cani, say, and I did something remarkable
and become rich and powerful and mighty and great, I
couldn't leave anything to my children? I can see how such
a political system might lead to civil wars! I can't
imagine any parent standing for it.

Why should everyone have as many rights as a count? What
sort of chaos would it be if anyone could demand that anyone
else's home be demolished? A count is raised from birth to
be very careful about using this right. A lesser-ranked
person probably would not be -- and there's always
some annoyed neighbor with a vendetta.

Why should everyone have as much money as a rich merchant?
Why should everyone have as much magical force as Glikkonen?
Why should everyone have as much martial prowess as a great
hero? Such concepts are ridiculous! They cannot be!
Similarly, why should everyone have as many rights as a
noble? Ridiculous!"

Um.... I could go into more detail about which rights we have, for the most part, hashed out.. but if you don't want me to right now, can we leave it at that we just miscommunicated various concepts?