Theory and Metatheory of Marriage

[sythyry]

I do not approve of the following decision! But I got outvoted. The wrongfolk have, wrongly, decided that everyone gets to make up their own form of marriage and to have it proclaimed a legal form of marriage by the legeriat.

This takes something that I think is perfectly reasonable -- everyone gets to make up their own marriage vows -- and generalizes it to madness. So, for example, Phaniet and Este want to make up an Binary-Open Marriage, which is a pretty conventional couple marriage, except that they can take lovers but they have to do it together. Arfaen, for her part, has decided that she likes having a tofyof, and wants something like that allowed by law too.

We're going to have a great big book listing all the currently available varieties of marriage. We already have the book itself -- a massive ledger book bound in green leather -- and I did manage to get some agreement that, when the book is full, we stop this game.

Anyhow, I'm worried about the game. It needs some rules, or someone's going to get hurt. Here are some rules I am thinking about, or that various of our more enthusiastic Rassimel and mock-Rassimel have discussed.

1. Marriages concern emotional and sexual bonds, long-term life plans, joint living situations, rights of kinship, and selected property matters. (Rationale: We probably have left some things off this list. But we don't want, say, two people who ought to be entering a business arrangement to phrase it as a marriage.)
2. A form of marriage must concern the attachments of a collection of consenting adults (called "spouses"). The collection of spouses is fixed at the time of the marriage.
3. The spouses must know, understand, and agree to the terms of the marriage before they can enter into it. (Rationale: You can't, say, marry the Duke of Vheshrame in a form marriage that gives you half his wealth, unless the Duke wants to.)
4. A spouse may unilaterally proclaim divorce, dissolving the whole marriage unless the terms of the marriage explain what will happen in the case of divorces. (Rationale: Divorce seems essential in various situations. Dissolving the whole marriage may seem rather drastic, but the alternative is chaos -- e.g., if five overzealous Orren have put together an intricate arrangement heavily based on the numerology of 5, and one leaves, there'll be no sensible way to interpret the remaining arrangement for 4. But a standard Cani marriage of 13 adults will turn into a standard Cani marriage of 12 in the natural way.)
5. Marriage vows never supercede other legal requirements. Prior marriage vows have precedence over newer ones. (Rationale: This system is going to be ridiculously unstable, but this rule makes it a touch more stable. Besides, if you don't like the prior vows, you can destroy that marriage and make one that fits your needs.)
Anyhow ... any ideas, suggestions, demands, proclamations, assertions, distractions, uglifications, or derisions?

Comments

[kensaro.livejournal.com]

Wait... you're the (benevolent) despot, they don't get to outvote you, do they?

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

I'm not any sort of ruler! That would be a terrible idea. I will have some authority, like a broad veto power, but not commanding.

[terrana.livejournal.com]

In general, Zi Ri don't rule because they're very bad at it. Sythyry is far from an exception to this. Just see how well zir captaincy of Strayway has gone.

There are, apparently, exceptions to this. Hezimikkinen seems to have a bit of a talent for politics, even if it means sometimes working around the actual Duke of Vheshrame.

[zeeth_kyrah]

I would add that for a marriage to have legal effect, it must be recognized by the state (otherwise, the state and its bureaucracy will have no idea there's a marriage involved until someone informs it of that fact). Since many forms of marriage will be recognized, this should be little trouble, just a matter of informing the state.

It could be as simple as filing a brief form noting who is part of a given marriage. It could be as complex as having to ask every time there is a legal process involved which is different when someone is married.

And if that paper gets filed, then the state must be notified of divorces as well (probably by filing another form noting who has left and who has stayed), or it will think the participants are still married when the paperwork is checked.

Also, there probably is no point in having a marriage of one. The point of marriage is to encourage the relationship and its results, after all; while a person might be narcissistic enough to want to marry themselves, the results of such a thing might be... too much trouble to be worth the effort.

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

Well, recognized by the city will have to do. We're not founding a new country.

You may be right about marriages of one.

[chipuni.livejournal.com]

*grin* What happens if there's two people in one body?

[alonewiththemoon]

Provision for responsibility for/parental rights to offspring, whether adopted, conceived with help or brought into a new marriage from a previous relationship?

[chipuni.livejournal.com]

Parents and offspring do come with marriages, don't they?

The marriage contract must specify what will happen to offspring, either hatched, given birth, or adopted into the marriage. These rules might survive beyond the marriage.

(Even if the marriage ordinarily wouldn't produce children, adoptions happen.)

There can be a default -- a marriage that adopts or produces a child must feed her[*] and provide for her education.

[*] Non-gendered 'her' includes all genders.

[kensan-oni.livejournal.com]

All Marriages must have a official symbol dedicated to the marriage that is to be worn by all married peoples so that people know they are married! No Exceptions! Well.. maybe the exception of it doesn't have to be the same form for every marriage. But the symbol must be obvious to the peoples, otherwise how can it really be considered marriage?

[cowboy-r.livejournal.com]

Wow. Can'o'worms, much?

[mmsword.livejournal.com]

There should probably be a mechanic for annulment (as opposed to divorce) in cases of coercion, magical or otherwise.

[terrana.livejournal.com]

It probably follows from rule 3, but yes, it should probably be explicitly codified to avoid ambiguity on that point.

[redbird]

Question: if (say) those 13 Cani with their standard Cani marriage want to marry a 14th Cani, do they have to first formally dissolve the existing marriage? Or would it be a good idea to modify rule 2 so that all the people currently in a marriage could agree to modify it by marrying one or more other primes, assuming that didn't violate the form of the marriage? I'd suggest, to match rule 4, adding to rule 2 something like "unless the terms of the marriage allow for adding spouses by unanimous consent."

Meta-question: this sounds as though any given person can only be in one marriage at a time, and someone (call zir Green) can only be married to both Red and Mauve if Red and Mauve are also married to each other. That is, there can be no overlapping marriages: Mauve can't also be married to Square and Triangle because the three of them are raising children together, with no connection between Square and Red. (Obviously, Mauve could be married to Square and Triangle, and have Yellow as a lover if the terms of Mauve, Square, and Triangle's marriage were about living together and all being responsible for supporting and caring for their children, but said nothing about other lovers.) If that's a rule, you should probably make it explicit; conversely, you might want to include "and people in this form of marriage may also have X, Y, Z forms of marriage with other people" in the book.

[beetiger.livejournal.com]

I hope that is not the case! It's a fairly normal form for Herethroy men to be in two marriages.

[archadia.livejournal.com]

You lost me somewhere between Mauve and Square... (Didn't take much!) can't we all just raise the children communally and support each other and save the fortune in red tape?

(Though, admittedly, our city would make for a great location for a law school, now, wouldn't it?)

[beetiger.livejournal.com]

What benefits, if any, will the state offer married people? What obligations? Those are really the points in which a legeriat ought to be involved in marriage.

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

Notable benefits include: the legal right to hold hands in public within the Kismirth city limits, and a finely-printed certificate suitable for framing.

Which is to say: Kismirth isn't going to be a city-state, or not at first; it will be part of Vheshrame. Marriages in Kismirth probably won't be legally relevant anywhere else, as my tofitude to Arfaen isn't legally relevant outside of Hanija --- however much the principals may find it personally relevant. I suspect and hope that many of the more exotic marriages in Kismirth will be tourists getting married, and the city won't have much to do for such people.

For citizens ... I should hire a local lawyer to explain what marriage is all about. I haven't personally dealt with it per se; Mynthë and I, of course, never married.

[dracosphynx.livejournal.com]

Obviously, the last line of the last page of the great green ledger should be "Continued in Volume 2."

[terrana.livejournal.com]

It'll all get crazy when someone dissects and reproduces the enchantment on the endless scroll Sythyry uses for a journal. This would naturally also open it up for us to read, comment on and... wait, did I just suggest a Marriage Wiki?

[barberio.livejournal.com]

Require some people to witness and attest that 2 and 3 have been applied, and are doing so free of Mentador influence?

[terrycloth.livejournal.com]

I don't think 2 is really necessary given 3 and 5.

[tuftears.livejournal.com]

It does prohibit children from being involved in marriages. Which may be sensible, but requires that adulthood be defined legally.

[gavinfox.livejournal.com]

Here's an interesting safeguard -- require that for marriages created IN the city to be validated, a trained expert, like someone who has a good amount of training and knowledge in permutations and social stuff and legal matters, be able to witness it, AND be able to comprehend how it works (ie, sign a document with legal consequences saying he understands what it means). Something like that to prevent things from getting TOO weird?

[terrana.livejournal.com]

Given the marriage turnover rate in the city version of Castle Wrong, I can see quite a few Cani lawyers making a fine living from that system. Not unlike the system on this side of the page, actually...

[xolo.livejournal.com]

Is there any compelling reason why the state needs to formally recognize marriages? Inheritance, joint property, and powers of attorney are about all that come to mind for me, and there are more direct, less messy ways of dealing with those.

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

There is a certain surprising sense of legitimacy and respect from official recognition. I became Arfaen's tofyof -- her concubine, in about as low-honor a situation as I could imagine -- and that under some rather unfortunate circumstances. I still felt that Hanija smiled upon our relationship -- or at least frowned less -- than Vheshrame ever did on my marriage-in-all-but-name to Mynthë.

Which is the reason that I find myself compelled to pay attention to this discussion at all. It's not a compelling reason to have marriages in the first place -- but given that they're around and most people find them important, we (and by "we" I exclude myself) seem obligated to play games with the concept.

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