Planes of Cleavage [14 Consimbs 4385]

[sythyry]

Mirrored from Sythyry.

We sat around a fine and brilliantly-polished table of some purple wood or other in Saza’s parlor. We were: Saza, Phaniet, Feralan / hCevian, Vae, and myself.

Saza: “I think that only hCevian, of all of us, can truly appreciate the shape of a spirit. It does not fit nicely in ordinary three-dimensional space.”

hCevian: “I cannot see spirits, save as oblong apprehensions with their own distinctive.”

Me: “Distinctive what?”

hCevain: “Feralan has no word for it.”

Feralan: “hCevian’s thinking of something sort of like an aura, only it’s a texture that moves.”

Saza: “Phaniet, would you do the honors of producing the demonstration spirit model, so that we can contemplate the problem as best as our limited minds allow?”

Phaniet opened the fine wooden box, and brought forth from the thick cheesecloth wrappings the soul-model. It was a glass paperweight, large enough so that Phaniet had to hold it in both hands. Half of it was clear glass (representing Feralan), and half red glass (representing hCevian), with a green dot in the center. The red mostly stayed on one side of the paperweight, and the clear mostly on the other, though a half-dozen fingers and tentacles of each color penetrated into the other.

Saza: “So, what we will be doing is is a spirisection — cutting the agglutinated spirit in half. The basic conditions are simple enough: we need to leave each participant with just about half the spirit, which will be enough to support life, and to heal back to wholeness if not normality. For technical reasons, the plane of cutting needs to go through the center of the sphere — marked by that green dot. The best cuts are generally those which have as much white in one half and as much red in the other as possible, that is, which separate the two spirits as much as possible.”

Phaniet: “If it’s a plane, it’ll slice several of those protrusions.”

Saza: “It is a plane. It will slice several of those protrusions. This is unfortunate. Sythyry could make for us a better scalpel, capable of, in effect, whittling one color off of the other. That would leave one party intact and healthy, but destroy the other.”

hCevian: “I do not volunteer for this destruction!”

Me: “Volunteering would not be strictly required, but we recognize the dangers of holding a pitched battle inside Feralan’s soul. So we are taking the approach that will likely let both of you survive.”

(For the record, we had considered killing hCevian and then doing the whittling approach. However, our best guess was that having a soul merged with yours dying was probably nearly as bad for Feralan as what we were planning — or perhaps worse, since it might destroy him altogether as well. And we felt some responsibility towards poor hCevian.)

Feralan: “So I’m going to lose bits of my spirit, aren’t I?”

Me: “I’m afraid so. So will hCevian.”

Feralan: “I get bits from hCevian, though?”

Me: “And it from you.”

Feralan: “Which bits do I get?”

Saza: “Now that is an excellent question, and one where we have a hard choice to make. Unless I’m missing something, there are two good ways to cut this. One way, along this plane, gives you each the most of your own natural spirit. Unfortunately it severs that protrusion, which corresponds to hCevian’s capacity to appreciate happiness, and that one, which is Feralan’s moral sensibility. The other choice, on that plane, would, I believe, make Feralan’s digestive processes cease to be autonomous, and damages hCevian’s powers of language.”

Me: “That’s not a nice choice.”

hCevian: “There are other choices! Is this diagram accurate?”

Me: “It is accurate as of the spell we just finished a third of an hour ago. Your spirits move around, generally slowly. Of course it is only as accurate as a three-dimensional model of a spirit can be.”

hCevian: “That plane is a possibility, not much worse than the second one. What does it do?”

Saza: “Um … it … chops out a good deal of Feralan’s ability to be empathic, and transfers it to you. It’s not quite balanced.”

hCevian: “A very dangerous thing for me, and not quite fair to Feralan. Consider that plane?”

Saza: “That bisects your ability to … um … maintain some of your vital internal processes. Probably fatal.”

hCevian: “Worse and worse.”

Feralan: “That digestive powers one sounds like the best of bad choices. How would it work though?”

Saza: “You’d have to concentrate some to be able to digest food.”

Feralan: “That sounds annoying, but I guess livable…”

Phaniet: “Wait. That damage would apply in every life, right?”

Saza: “Yes, probably.”

Phaniet: “So, imagine Feralan’s next life. His parents are utterly unprepared for a child with that flaw, and have never heard about it before. Baby-feralan doesn’t know it himself, and doesn’t know how to do it. Which means he starves to death, and his parents none the wiser. Life after life after life, with no hope unless somehow he gets reincarnated with us again and we figure it out. Right?”

Saza: “I hadn’t quite realized that, but yes, it is right.”

Me: “That one won’t do. Are there similar issues with the happiness-and-morality choice, beyond the obvious?”

Phaniet: “The obvious is bad enough! No happiness again, ever, for hCevian! No moral sense, ever, for Feralan!”

Me: “Better than staying joined, though?”

hCevian: “Not better than staying joined. I will endure Feralan’s empathic abilities if he is willing to part with them.”

Feralan: “What does it mean, missing my ability to be empathic?”

Me: “You will have trouble figuring out what people are feeling. Maybe even trouble understanding that they have emotions.”

Feralan: “How bad is that?”

Me: “I have no idea.”

Phaniet: “I couldn’t stand it… but as far as I’m concerned, nobody but Cani really understands other people’s emotions very well anyways.”

Saza: “I don’t think it’d be that terrible. You’ll have to use your mind to figure things out, where ordinarily you’d use your spirit to simply understand.”

hCevian: “I will be the one in trouble. The life of a lesser Power of Locador is one of conflict and battle. Empathy is a serious weakness for such as me!”

Me: “You are asking for our protection?”

hCevian: “I am … I am begging for it.”

Vae: “The crippling from me you have taken! The protection I shall give you, the terrible protection!”

Which sounds fair to me, not that I much want a Locador demon hanging about … even an empathic one.

Me: “So that would seem to be the best choice. “

Saza: “So it would seem. Shall we begin?”

Me: “Tomorrow. Think about it overnight, and see if there are any undiscovered dooms.”

Saza: “Think not overlong! The soul-map is as of this morning; by tomorrow it may have changed in lesser or greater degree!”

Comments

[rowyn]

Is there a spell you can make that will detect Feralan's spirit in the next life, so that you could find him and warn his parents? Over and over again? It does sound better than the other options, that part aside. :/

On the bright side, at least you have a resident expert in damaged emotional capacity now. Maybe Nalche will have some advice for Feralan, if that's the route you have to take.

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

I don't think I can. Cross-life anythings are very hard indeed.

[sianmink.livejournal.com]

There is lurking doom here with turning Feralan (and his reincarnations) into a sociopath, I think.

Yes, we have a word for the condition of lack of empathy here. I'm sure you probably find that to be disconcerting and horrible, even though it's still quite rare here.

Still a locador demon with a prime's empathy, that's an experiment worthy of any mad scientist. You should write a book about it. Perhaps even a morality play.

[stormydragon.livejournal.com]

Technically, he'd be a psychopath, since the inability is due to an innate biological defect. A sociopath has the ability to be empathic but has supressed it due to trauma incured whilst growing up.

[kris-schnee.livejournal.com]

It seems like this would mean Feralan is likely to become a horrible serial killer. Over and over. Maybe not doing the surgery is the best option!

[bloofox.livejournal.com]

It is widely regarded that the most Evil thing I've ever done in my career as an evil Constructor was jabbing a hypo into someone when he was hugging me and pharmacologically ripping out his faculty for empathy.

But I do wonder, who do locador demons conflict and battle with? Other locador demons? Wizards using Too Much Locador? Horrible things that happen when you use Too Much Locador?

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

Each other, mostly. They come from a realm with very little matter, and what little there is, is the subject of terrible fights.

I may learn more about this over the next while.

[heavenscalyx.livejournal.com]

Would it be worth waiting for things to shift a bit and looking for a more advantageous plane? Is there no possibility that the lost sections would regrow?

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

...

That makes entirely a lot of sense. It's a gamble, but I think we get to try again and again as long as everyone is willing to wait around.

[I'm going to have some rewriting to do by Monday! -bb]

[stormydragon.livejournal.com]

However, our best guess was that having a soul merged with yours dying was probably nearly as bad for Feralan as what we were planning

Are you suggesting that if you could have destroyed hCevian without danger of backlash to Feralan, you would have? That seems rather evil.

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

Yes, I would have. Feralan is a prime, my client, and my responsibility. hCevian, however much an innocent he is in this matter, is a monster of a very dangerous sort, and I have much less responsibility towards him than towards Feralan. I understand the moral considerations, and indeed I am working to take hCevian's needs into account; but ultimately, I consider myself obligated to Feralan.

[mmsword.livejournal.com]

Not particularly evil, given World Tree ethical standards. I think perhaps at most it'd be considered inconsiderate. Though being rude to "Here" by abusing their servants is rather unwise...

[mmsword.livejournal.com]

If the spirit maps change significantly over time, would it be possible to wait for a bit with constant monitoring and hope that a more opportune tradeoff occurs?

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

Yes, in fact, it would.

[Bard goes adn rewrites. -bb]

[stormydragon.livejournal.com]

How is it changing though? If they're becoming increasingly mixed as time goes on, it could be that the longer they wait, the worse the tradeoffs become.

[cowboy-r.livejournal.com]

I don't suppose you can apply the lipid bi-layer model, here? Create a spell that has one side that's hydrophilic, and one side that's hydrophobic, with 'hydro' in this instance being Ferralan's soul, and then use that as a guide for separating the two?

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

I barely understand that ... but if the souls were that separate or that distinguishable, the job would probably be easier.

[ionotter.livejournal.com]

I think you have here, an unrealized resource?

Saza is a mentador mage. As such, zie can affect the thoughts and emotions of both Ferelan and hCevian. It is a well-known fact, that thoughts can control the body of a Prime in this world?

Monks of our realm are taught meditations that give them incredible power over their bodies. One of the tests they must pass, it to be brought out into the freezing cold and have their naked bodies covered with a soaking wet blanket. Using naught but the power of their minds, they must not only maintain their warmth, but also dry out the blanket! Observers report clouds of steam rising from the enshrouded monks during this exercise.

Likewise, emotions are very different from thoughts, and where thoughts can influence our bodies, emotions can influence our souls. Emotions such a grief, anger and jealousy can alter our souls in not-nice ways, even damage them for many lifetimes. We have documented instances of warriors from 60 years ago who died in battle, manifesting in children of this age.

In this case, the child's spirit was the reincarnation of a warrior who was trapped in their fighting skyboat as it fell from the sky. It was on fire, and he could not release the canopy to escape. They died screaming in rage and frustration, filled with despair at not being able to go home.

The child manifested this. Nightmares, memories of a life they never lived, knowing the names of people they've never met, even recognizing their faces upon meeting them in person. Voice patterns, behaviors, all of the slain warrior.

The child was unable to have any peace until they visited the site of the battle, and found the place where they'd fallen. There, they said goodbye to what was left of their family, their surviving friends and lovers, and passed on at long last.

Emotions affect the soul. They can tie things to a soul, or help release it.

You have a precious opportunity here for Saza to both learn AND demonstrate the true power of a Mentador Mage. Using her powers, she can accentuate the emotional characteristics of both entities, making them..."brighter", I guess you could say? More distinct. Stronger, even. Then Ferelan and hCevian could be manipulated to enhance the differences between the two.

For example, Ferelan will treasure his empathy, whereas hCevian will abhor it. This could potentially create a much greater separation of the two halves.

The other option, and a potentially interesting one, is to go the opposite route.

Blend the two souls. Make them inseparable.

If they cannot be separated without damaging or killing the other, offer a new route. A new life. Ferelan would cease to be Ferelan, but hCevian would likewise cease to be hCevian. But the new entity would not only have the abilities of a both beings, they would have each other's checks and balances.

I don't know the laws or customs of your world surrounding the creation of new life, but if all else were to fail, and no other options were available, tis' always better to create new life, than to destroy it.

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

The last route is rather alarming! Turning a prime into a monster -- and for all his lives -- seems rather unforgiveable.

[bloofox.livejournal.com]

Since I'm ceasing to exist as an entity to have something else live in my body with my memories, I do have to say that it is not a pleasant process to have your personality slowly disintegrate. I really don't think this is a nice thing to do to someone. While there is some comfort to be taken in the idea that something or someone else will take my place, I'd like it a lot more if I were taking my place.

[terrycloth.livejournal.com]

Put the merged souls in a blender, and then use a centrifuge to separate them out.

This would definately kill both of them, but they'd probably be okay in their next lives. Assuming the centrifuge worked.

[goodluckfox.livejournal.com]

Why must you cut on a plane? There are techniques in our world that allow an extreme amount of precision when performing cutting/milling/lathing/sculpturing or what have you, along either mathematically defined curves/surfaces/volumes or outright irregular. Could something similar be developed by your people?

Also, what about forcing a THIRD soul in there, one that would not interpenetrate either Feralan or hCevian? By definition it would have to take up the space in between them or create a "barrier" between them... then some sort of action on THAT soul may cause the other two to just pop apart. The third soul may be destroyed in the process, which is why you use a non-sentient creature or something artificial.

We have a field of research called "artificial intelligence". I wonder if there's such a thing as "artificial spirit" i your world that might be able to be used in this case?

[kris-schnee.livejournal.com]

Primes' spells do that all the time, right? Just adding the "spirit" element to a spell makes it slightly intelligent and is enough to control a conjured elemental. So... it might work. But it'd probably be too doomful for Sythyry to try!

[striderhlc.livejournal.com]

I'm not particularly familiar with your world's magic, but clearly there are spells which affect the spirit. Would it be possible to separate Feleran and hCevian through this cut, then use Mutoc or Healoc Spiridor to repair the parts that they had lost, or rebuild some reasonable facsimile thereof?

If Feleran is part locador demon, will he still be prime enough to enter cities and the like? Does he run the risk of being mistaken for a Locador demon disguised as a Rassimel, rather than a Rassimel who has the misfortune of being a Locador demon in small part?

- HC

[shurhaian.livejournal.com]

If it were a simple matter to do that, I think they wouldn't need to go through this drastic step to begin with.

It may be worth investigating whether portions can be excised and swapped after the fact, but it will likely be difficult to investigate this until after the souls are apart, and it might not turn out to be possible at all - thus, they would want to make sure the cut is as mutually favourable as possible.

Even if it is possible, there would probably be some degree of additional spiritual trauma. But waiting for the spirits to heal would make it too likely that the "foreign" portions would become internalized, and thus could not be easily removed. The only thing I can think of to do is to: wait for the best time to do the section as planned(and "they're getting too deeply woven" could be a factor in that); do it; attempt to infuse each spirit with fresh life force, via Healoc Spiridor; immediately try to perform smaller, ~wedge~-shaped cuts to dig out the protrusions foreign spirit, transposing them back to their proper bodies with as little loss as possible; more Healoc Spiridor to bandage the grafts.

I gather that most of this would be even more novel a process than what they're already planning, so... a rather daunting prospect, for a thing that might need to be done pretty much on the spot.

[xolo.livejournal.com]

I'd certainly take more than just one measurement before cutting. If you measure several times over the course of a few days, you may be able to spot advantageous trends that will reward patience. If that's not the case, then you've lost only a little time.

Also, for hCevian, I'm not too sure that gaining empathy would be that much of a disaster. Empathy can be a useful skill in conflict, as it allows you to better understand your enemy's motivations, and thereby predict their actions. The trick is to empathize enough to understand how they feel, then depersonalize them enough to use that knowledge to hurt them. It's a skill most great generals have.