City Musings: Economy

[sythyry]

This is a hard question.  What sort of economic foundation should a Sythyry-built city have?

Assume, arguendo, that the city is floating in the air not too far from Vheshrame --- something like a skyboat, and something like a sky-bridge city (like Oorah Thrassen).  So it will have no natural resources whatever.  It may have quasi-natural resources: I could, for example, build rooms in which one could grow crops, with labor.

I could also, in principle, support the whole city myself -- well, for a small city, a village perhaps.  I don't much want to.  A cityful of sycophants and clients and people who live by accepting gifts from me seems a bit off.  Also I would probably have to spend all my mornings doing high-price enchantments -- as it is, I spend half them doing that sort and half doing ones for fun or emergency -- and that would not please me much.

A city of crafters would work fine.  Oorah Thrassen is somewhat like that.  I can't, however, import a pile of master-whittlers or master-clockmakers or something.  I might be able to find one or two masters who want to move to a new Ketherian citylet and start a guild-chapter and craft-lineage there.  It may take decades to get established, and we will need other things in the meantime.... but this seems like a good long-term approach. What crafts, though?  Of course it depends somewhat on what crafters are available, but I could court, oh, a certain glassmaker, or tailor, or this or that.

I'm sure there's a lot I'm not thinking of, too. 

This will be difficult, I suspect.  I have appreciated your thoughts on other topics; I would appreciate them on this one, perhaps even more.  

Comments

[goodluckfox.livejournal.com]

A traff version of Birknazza?!?!?!??

[goodluckfox.livejournal.com]

It would seem to me that your city could have affan in being libertine. "What happens in Sythryville stays in Sythryville." Primes and possibly even monsters could come to your city to gamble and frolic and be entertained. We have entire cities whose entire purpose is to be a resort, vacation, and activity destination. The locals don't have to "produce" anything other than food and entertainment and services for the customers, and they make a fortune doing it.

Um, wait, does gambling games of chance work on the World Tree with easy access to magic?

[redbird]

This isn't a specific answer, but a category: crafters whose work will be wanted more in the city might be a good place to start. That's particularly true of people who are skilled but not famous. A tailor is likely to get business from other city residents, providing them with needed clothing, and zir with practice and some income while zie was establishing a reputation beyond the new city. A glassmaker or clockmaker would probably need to rely mostly on outside custom, if only because your new city is likely to be fairly small.

I don't know enough about the area around Vhesrame (or, really, the World Tree as a whole) to know whether there are marketable services other than enchantment that would work here. You bind enchantments and sell them elsewhere; a guard has to work on-site, and a cook or hairdresser needs to at least be nearby. A maker of fancy candies, the sort that are best if eaten within a few days but are valued partly for their appearance?

[redbird]

The city makes a fortune, but many of the locals are fairly poor, because a lot of the actual jobs in such cities are fairly menial work, cleaning rooms and serving food and drinks. The staff at the gambling parlors don't get rich, though the owner may.

There is a non-libertine side of that sort of economy: even in our cities that are famed for the gambling, a lot of the money these days comes from concerts, circus performances (including wild animal acts), and the like. But that sort of economic basis depends on reasonably cheap travel, because you need either a lot of repeat business (which is back to the gambling) or a lot of people to be able to afford to visit at least once or twice.

[brynndragon.livejournal.com]

For gambling games I assume cheating is no more or less easy (or with less harsh repercussions!) than on my own low-to-no-magic world. It's just done differently, with different means of preventing it (in addition to dealing with non-magical means of cheating/prevention).

[terrycloth.livejournal.com]

Well, you could start with

(1) Whatever the monsters you invite in are good at. Even if it's a bit scary.

(2) Tourism, since non-adventurers don't often get to meet monsters socially. And vice versa. If your skyboat city moved around some (or had an entrance portal that moved around, perhaps) you could have a travelling carnival thing going.

(3) Trade with monsters, perhaps? You'd be near Veshrame so you have an easy connection to the rest of the prime trade network. OTOH Veshrame is probably not near a whole lot of other monsters with enough of a civilization to make this a huge factor, since they've been gradually eliminating the nearby competition.

(4) Whatever the traff/etc. people who follow you around because they have no choice are good at?

The real answer, of course, is that trying to plan out an economy ahead of time is tricky and prone to failure. So these are more guesses of what will tend to happen on its own that you might want to prepare for and encourage or outlaw.

[terrycloth.livejournal.com]

It doesn't take THAT much magic sense to see the EASY ways to cheat. People with skill at casting illusions or whatever (but mostly illusions) should be able to get away with it in the more casual games though.

[gavinfox.livejournal.com]

Remember the old comments that some of us have made in this journal about how the guild system, as it is practised on the Tree, is somewhat inefficient and that there are *better systems of economics* out there?

Why don't you encourage people who have an issue with the guild system to come and work in your city? Make it subtle, so as not to REALLY piss off trading partners... but just set it up so that anyone who wants to can come and start a business doing pretty much anything. Sure they'd have to register the business and follow all applicable laws, but they don't need to be a 'master' this or have so many years as an apprentice of that to try their hand at figuring out a competitive way to make, say, pottery or whatever. They just need to have an idea for how to make and market things better or cheaper or easier or whatever than their competitors, and the idea is that there isn't lots of restrictions on imports or exports..

[xolo.livejournal.com]

You could perhaps attract a stable of master pornographers.

[redbird]

That might actually lead to more casinos and such, because they could afford and advertise counter-spells to guarantee that if, say, you say three aces in your partner's hand, the aces were really there.

[tuftears.livejournal.com]

Land is the easiest way to manage this!

You can sell the right to live in a certain amount of space in your city as long as they respect the laws, and should they violate the laws and need to be exiled, there will be no refund. Be sure to charge an estate fee for the right to transfer to their heirs, and an immortality tax to be paid yearly should the length of their residence exceed a certain amount! This would be the option of choice for wealthy immigrants.

Or they may rent, paying a small deposit up front and then paying you a certain amount each month for the right to live in the space they are using. This amount could start small and go up to a capped amount over time. This would be an option for immigrants with useful trades, and their families.

To a privileged and treasured few, your friends, you could give them grants of land in perpetuity, extending to their heirs.

There would be public space - streets, marketplaces, and the like. People would not be allowed to live in these spaces, but would have freedom to move through these spaces or to use them for their intended purposes, i.e. merchants selling goods in a wide open space where many people can come.

You might want to establish residential, commercial, and industrial zones, i.e. someone who wishes to establish a tannery might best be placed in a zone where there will be a lot of foul odors anyway, and air flow will direct them away from the city.

You can't just have a city of crafters; they need people to sell to.

[relee.livejournal.com]

You and all your friends are adventurers aren't you? Maybe you could make something like a mobile adventuring hub, with an inn, a weapons shop, an armour shop, a magic supplies shop, and a general store, and move the city to wherever the adventurers are going, like the latest dark lord or magical disaster or whatever. Plus you'd probably have adventurers come to kill your monsters anyways so there you go!

[cowboy-r.livejournal.com]

What's the economics of adventuring? Could you survive by being a noted home base for adventurers?

[gavinfox.livejournal.com]

Here's a thing; what would a floating, mobile city do better than things that do not have the inherent advantage of being a floating, mobile city?

Answer that question, and you'd have your answer.

My mind goes to, "Bulk trade", or maybe "Vacation Tourism", or maybe "Long distance projection of military power".

[arenhaus.livejournal.com]

For one, there already is a major resource at Sythyry's disposal: Vae's magic. ;)

[chipuni.livejournal.com]

By far, this is the BEST solution.

Two large cities in this part of the world (San Francisco and Seattle) literally started as home bases for adventurers. They made their money by selling supplies to adventurers, selling everything that people needed to survive in our wilds and to gather gold.

Few adventurers returned with much gold... but the cities prospered and grew dramatically.

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

Absolutely not.

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

Now that is a fine idea.

Gambling is common enough. Most peoples' magic-use is blatant enough that it can't be used for cheating; and, from what Grinwipey tells me (I just asked him) the best cheating-techniques are some 4/5 nonmagical.

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

A good warning, to be sure.

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

Vae's magic is not a safe resource! Better to rely on my own, which is often weaker and always scarcer, but less inclined to doom.

[archadia.livejournal.com]

But this is DOOMINGTON! XD
(DOOMNATION!)

[rowyn]

Excellent point about planned economies.

The things that make a city attractive to people are:

* Geography -- Orren want bodies of water to play in, farmers want arable land, etc.
* Safety -- from monsters, criminals, and corruption in government
* Desirable tax rates
* Desirable cost of living
* Tax structure
* Legal climate -- traff people want no laws against traff behavior
* Regulatory climate -- craftsman don't want legal obstacles that stop them from crafting

Since your geography is artificial, it's not going to be attractive to people who want to extract natural resources. You could possibly provide them with artificial resources: it probably doesn't make sense to give them land to farm given that farming uses lots of area and does not return much wealth per square foot. But a room that produces unlimited glass rods would be attractive to a glassblower.

If you're going to let monsters (read: Vae) hang out in your city, you're probably not going to get high marks for safety. I have no particular insight in what makes a city safe, beyond the obvious.

The cost of living is something you'll have a lot of control over, since if you're making the land you can control how much it costs and if/when additional land/housing is produced. If you don't care about being perceived as fair, you can subsidize the purchase or lease of housing for desirable citizens and increase costs (or refuse to sell/lease) to undesirable. You may or may not want to ensure that other necessities are inexpensive, depending on whether you care how easy it is for poor people to live in your city. Not that wealthy people *like* paying more for necessities, but they do not care as much, and they may actively dislike living around poor people.

Regulation is a tricky question. It's in a given crafter's best interest to ply her trade unimpaired while her competition has as many obstacles as possible. Which is why guilds flourish: established crafters like having a way to stifle and control the competition. Regulation is sometimes in the consumers' best interest as well. You probably don't want a regulatory climate radically different from your neighbors' to avoid annoying your trading partners. But you might be able to lure skilled craftsmen who are unable to get master status in their own towns due to guild problems. This may get you more people like Grinwipey, though. Fair warning.

Oh, and the natural way for your city to grow is to get people who produce goods and services that you use, like Phaniet and Grinwipey. Your city may end up attracting more enchanters if you bring in a lot of people who produce or acquire the goods that enchanters need.

[kensan-oni.livejournal.com]

Be a tourist-driven economy. This isn't as hard as it sounds. What you are going to need is

- reliable support network that will deliver to your city supplies needed on a daily basis, in return for credit.
- Sites and Activities. Things like Zoo Tours amongst cloud islands, Sky Whale Performances, Night Theater, Day Circuses, interesting attractions, such as Merry-Go-Rounds and Illusionary Performances or Experiences. Museums and Monuments. Gardens and Eateries.
- Places for people to stay! Hotels, Hostels, Communal Longhouses, whatever works for Primes, and rentable by visitors by the day, week, and month.
- Shops! They could make things on site (hence, becoming part of the show), or they could be unique or interesting items from abroad, as well as little items of your attractions so that people can remember their visit.

I'm sure there are other more fantastical things you can think of that wouldn't be possible here.

[kensan-oni.livejournal.com]

Oh! Also, Consider being a Port of Call, instead. Charge money for storing other people's goods. It might attract pirate attention, but that might not be a horribly bad thing, if they are willing to pay for a Safe Port of Harbor.

[kibbe.livejournal.com]

Oddly enough being a free port can be quite lucrative, depending on the regulatory conditions around you. Just functioning as a trade port alowing interactions between monsters and primes can be a viable echonomic siduation. I would expect, even if you have to make farm rooms it would be best to work on your own agricultual systems than to count on imported food.
Crafts are a good way to go, though that does take a long time to get set up well, after all, craftsmen need to make a reputation before thay can market there goods very far. Artworks are also quite doable.

[ragarth.livejournal.com]

Keep in mind that a lot of trade is done through teleportation gates, so Sythyry would have to position zieself on skyboat trade routes. Alternatively, if the creation of gates is still allowed, Zie can set zirself up as as a trade route between two major kingdoms. A gate on one side leading to Vheshrame and another gate on another side leading to... wherever is exotic and far away and of trade-value. Depending on how close gates can be together (I don't remember) You could have multiple gates and become a trade hub. Position the city in an exotic locale and not only do you become a trade hub, but also a jump-point for adventurers, which the gods have ensured is rather lucrative.

[ragarth.livejournal.com]

I just realized, Sythyry is a zi ri, zie has the power to plan centuries in advance, and a lot of the lower branches are just getting settled and also will be light on gates. Rapid and cheap trade between them and the upper branches would not only be a goldmine now, but once the lower branches become established in a century or two, Sythyria would be a serious trade hub. Ontop of that, hCevian would be invaluable for building gates of maximal distance (locador demons giving hyperspace bypass advice) and Vae would be invaluable in dealing with any outworlders that come sniffing.

Just saying "hi" from the Gold Coast, Australia - Looking Forward To Getting Involved.

[(Anonymous)]

Thanks...this looks really interesting. I am looking forward to having my say!

[foomf.livejournal.com]

That would fail because the one thing guilds are good at is stopping competition. They would scream bloody murder if non-guild agencies were to show up as competition over time via imports.

The good thing about guilds is (when they work properly) that they regulate the minimum quality of work and provide a way to ensure continuity of knowledge which might otherwise be lost.

The bad thing about guilds is that they can become an impediment to innovation, they can impede the development of the field by refusing to advance apprentices or journeymen, they can result in monopolies that gouge their customers for goods or services that would not be over-priced in competitive markets.

These things are most unpleasant when the guild membership is required to succeed and the individual cannot move elsewhere or take up a different trade in a reasonable way.

[foomf.livejournal.com]

There's a trend that I don't think has been explicitly stated: Become a Moving City. Or more than one, if you really want to be creative.

Trade, entertainment, crafting, adventuring supply, all those things that could become part of the city, but simply make it mobile, and have it move from place to place at a fixed speed and with a well-understood schedule.

If it starts out smallish, that's fine, because you do have many centuries for it to grow in size and become more of a city. And planning ahead for splitting off smaller "suburbs" for specialized purposes or for simple growth, and simply making sure to meet up every century or so for a big get-together, that also makes for cohesion and unity.
(Not to mention, a few well-attuned gates to pop between the cities as needed, perhaps?)

Passione

[(Anonymous)]

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Grazie

Cureggia