City Musings: Monsters?

[sythyry]

There have been extensive mutterings and murmurings that I should construct a city, in which we -- wrongfolk, monsters, angels, and other undesirables -- can live as we wish. I certainly haven't decided not to, though it's probably a terrible idea for a great many reasons.

Still ... how do we wish to live?

Specifically I am thinking about the monsters -- Vae, of course, and the Elfimel. And hCevian, of course, though his case is less troublesome, mainly because he is nearly impossible to exclude from a city. But the other monsters cannot.

We could be an ordinary city. Primes inside, monsters outside. Vae is certainly used to this. The angels will be unhappy, but the angels are here as refugees anyhow.

Or we could let those four creatures inside the walls. It's not as if walls keep us safe from Vae anyhow, and the angels are not very dangerous. This will probably cut our prime immigrants by half.

Or we could, I suppose, try to allow other monsters inside the walls as well -- mherobump and taptet and other generally safe ones. This isn't that extraordinary, though few cities make much of a point of it.

Or, say, we could have a "Monster Ghetto". Monsters may come to a certain portion of the city, inside one set of walls, but outside of another set. The inner city is, of course, reserved for primes alone, just like a normal city. But, unlike most cities, monsters can come inside of some walls. And I'm thinking of, e.g., trying to make sure that some important cultural areas are in the monster ghetto -- like the museum and theatre districts, and the governmental areas, and the best shopping, if I can manage that. The inner city could be mostly for prime homes. That would be unusual.

[Poll #1726949]

Comments

[archadia.livejournal.com]

I chose not to segregate mainly because, well, if -I- were to live there, I would be a monster, and seeing as I have seen my fair share of Ghettos already, I'd rather not be pushed into one in a city I'd chose to relocate me and my mate. You know?
But the second and last sound interesting as well!

[quoting-mungo.livejournal.com]

I'd say if you want to do reasonably right by the monsters, do something in between option three and four - monsters can move into the outer portion of the city, but unless they're considered generally safe (mherobump, taptet) or prove themselves friendly as individuals (the angels, Vae, hCevian), they can't move into the inner city.

[kris-schnee.livejournal.com]

It wouldn't make sense to allow all monsters, since you have plenty that really are dangerous and hostile. The third option seems most sensible to me, though the fourth is most likely to keep you supplied with doom interesting experiences due to... interaction between tolerable monsters, intolerable monsters, and primes who want to live in the city but stay away from the monsters.

[zeeth_kyrah]

The biggest thing I have to ask, having not known the World Tree well, is "What's wrong with scawn?"

What if they were properly acculturated as well?

[delight-in.livejournal.com]

What's right with scawn? They're stupid and annoying and reckless and while they're not dangerous to an adventurer they're dangerous to children because they don't respect life AT ALL. You can't even threaten to kill them to keep them in line because they don't CARE if they die either!

[read-alicia.livejournal.com]

While I appreciate the humor of your post, let me make a mild change to it to show what TV Tropes calls "Unfortunate Implications.

ASKER: What's wrong with [orcs]?

TOLKIEN: What's right with [orcs]? They're stupid and annoying and reckless and while they're not dangerous to an adventurer they're dangerous to children because they don't respect life AT ALL. You can't even threaten to kill them to keep them in line because they don't CARE if they die either!

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

[Delight is taking a very conventional IC World Tree point of view here.]

[read-alicia.livejournal.com]

In a very non-conventional IC World Tree thread :)

[xolo.livejournal.com]

Would you *want* orcs living in your city?

[zeeth_kyrah]

Ah, okay. So their monstrous flaw is reckless disregard for life (or is it a ridiculous reproduction rate). But is that a Gods-determined thing or a cultural error? What happens if someone raises a scawn from a baby, in a society that actually cares about whether someone gets hurt or dies?

[ionotter.livejournal.com]

While I'm a monster myself, namely "human", I've noticed that both within my own species, and the other species on this world, that like tends to stick with like. I daresay that such proactive segregation will not be necessary, the occupants of the city will do it themselves.

Indeed, your problem would soon be trying to manage territorial issues, where a prime or another monster seeks to be a bit more egalitarian than the rest, and seek some variety. The popular cliche' among my own race being, "You're not from around here, are you?"

I'd suggest allowing the populace to segregate by themselves, but with some modifiers?

Main streets and thoroughfares MUST remain Neutral Ground at all times, to allow free travel and commerce. Plazas and other open spaces where streets cross are under a universal peace, so all might freely mingle in safety and security.

Might I also suggest a "lock-in clause" to any real estate purchases within such a city? Basically, once you purchase a home or property, you are financially "locked in" to that property for a period of some years. Perhaps a sliding scale of fees and penalties, enourmous at the start, but gradually tapering off towards the end. The purpose being to make it economically unattractive to buy a property, then quickly resell it to a particular species of monster, in order to artificially segregate a neighborhood.

Also known as "gentrification".

[kris-schnee.livejournal.com]

*groans* You're giving me flashbacks to property law class, with talk about restrictive land deeds. "Title is forfeit if owner subleases to one of those sneaky ferret-taurs..."

[xolo.livejournal.com]

Building the ghetto with certain important acculturating institutions placed within seems a very sensible plan. You might also consider a program whereby individual monsters, having shown themselves peaceful and trustworthy citizens of the ghetto, can then receive permission to visit or eventually even live in the prime city.

[gavinfox.livejournal.com]

I second this. Some sort of pass or testing system or proving system, as unambiguous and non-subjective as possible, to get the safer monsters to be allowed fully in. The ghetto would be a lower level of 'pass', requiring less work to get in, but there would be some actually useful method of social mobility for monsters.

Also, the language you use will be very relevant -- consider things that are less demeaning, like "nonprime". Don't use the term 'monster'. Maybe "civilized nonprime", "unproven nonprime", "trusted nonprime", done on an individual by individual basis?

Wasn't there some group of primes that was trying to do some live in harmony with monsters thing in your journeys some time ago?

[kris-schnee.livejournal.com]

Sythyry would run into the fact that the built-in Common language has words for "Zi Ri" and "Gormoror" but not "Wheriwheffle". The gods probably wanted the primes to think of nonprimes as lesser beings.

(By the way, why do fantasy races always seem to be Capitalized? We don't write about "Humans".)

[xolo.livejournal.com]

They are lesser beings. That's how they were created.

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

Well, for varying senses of "lesser". Vae is not a lesser being in the way that some taptet or scawn would be a lesser being.

[chipuni.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's a good idea.

Ghettos tend to rapidly become 'undesirable' parts of a city: people quickly assume that, since X are allowed to be there, then all 'evil' should be pushed to that part of the city. Then that tends to be self-sustaining: associating all X with evil.

[kensaro.livejournal.com]

The monster ghetto sounds more like a 'Gated community for primes' to me the way you describe it.

[cowboy-r.livejournal.com]

Gah! Your eye-con! It squicks!

[gavinfox.livejournal.com]

it's from a movie, I think...

[xolo.livejournal.com]

That's from 'A Clockwork Orange', IIRC. The image stays with one.

[kensaro.livejournal.com]

That's actually my own eye, the picture was taken during LASIK surgery.
But I did choose it as an LJ icon because of the A Clockwork Orange connotations yes. ;)

[relee.livejournal.com]

My suggestion would be to have a policy of personal responsibility, where each monster is responsible for themselves and their effects, and will be rightly punished for any action which brings harm to others. Vae could destroy the whole city and if you're going to have one monster that can do that, you might as well let them all in.

You could also include a principle of group responsibility, where the monsters police themselves, so that for the sake of their home, they keep more violent monsters from acting out their violences.

You might not get a lot of prime immigration, but surely those monsters have uses besides horrific killings and fates worse than death? There would be exotic primes, monsters and monster lovers, and of course the wrongfolk. Eventually the special talents of these folk would bring others seeking them, as well as adventurers seeking the thrills of a city of monsters.

I suppose the greatest worry you would have is that people might paint you as the evil overlord of a nation of evil evils and make war upon you in the name of goodness and purity and things like that.

Surely you're not the only wizard with a powerful skyboat full of adventurers and deviant principles of right and wrong; you might have more threat from primes than monsters.

[delight-in.livejournal.com]

You knew that if you asked a bunch of monsters if you should let monsters into a city they'd say YES didn't you?

[zeeth_kyrah]

I actually said no, but then I'd want a walled space for monsters anyway, just not a heavily-enchanted wall, and not inside the primary city anyway. Better to introduce the Doomfest gently over time.

Because it's either that or just let in a few kinds and keep the bigger nasty things away.

[terrycloth.livejournal.com]

Having a 'primes only' area seems like it'd cause more trouble than it'd solve. The worst thing you can do is invite monsters in but make them feel oppressed, after all -- you're better off keeping the troublesome monsters (like the ones compelled to murder primes) out entirely.

OTOH, maybe you could, uh, compartmentalize the city to limit the damage caused by any particular outbreak? Split it into sectors with mini-walls between them? Then the 'really nervous primes' could have their own area, but the 'easily exploited taptet' could also have an area that they could seal off from primes. Presumably there'd be some sort of city guard who could walk through the walls regardless, to prevent people from abusing that sort of thing.

Alternatively, have something like the suppression field you saw in Hanija, to cut down on unauthorized powerful magical effects? Or emergency buttons scattered around that people could use to keep anyone from hurting anyone for a while until someone could come sort out the altercation. Other ways of keeping people safe from each other without literally walling them off.

Hmm, a perpetual spirit tether on the whole city, so that nobody could (permanently) die without permission? n.n

[foomf.livejournal.com]

Rather than give my opinion, which would be based in my own experience, I shall ask some questions that might clarify the situation better.

What's the purpose of a city?
How is that different from the purpose of a government?
Does government and governance require a city?
Can there be a form of governance that works for all sentients living in an area?

Why did Primes form cities in the first place?
Why did non-primes form their cities?
Why did Primes exclude non-primes from their cities?

What benefits accrue to forming a mixed-prime-and-non-prime city?
What detriments would be inevitable?
What detriments would be easily managed?

Who decides on the form of governance?
What do the Gods of the World Tree think about all this?