The Opinions of Monsters

[sythyry]

[Poll #1576401]

Comments

[terrycloth.livejournal.com]

Let's see... you're essentially imprisoning them indefinately, which is probably fair. They'll be forced to work but otherwise allowed to pretend to have a normal life, though? Is that how indentures of that sort work? Or are they going to be chained up in a closet?

Cutting off their ears is weird. Rheng could have helped with it, though!

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

They'll be forced to work, and kept in a village of Herethroy who regard them as foreign criminals. A normal life, I suppose, but hardly a rich one.

[kris-schnee.livejournal.com]

Imprisoning them somewhere with fresh air and decent work, with a chance of freedom eventually, probably with opportunities to make more trouble for Sythyry by her known covert skills, and regular chances to see their kids and poison them against Sythyry while teaching them how to be felons themselves. It's not really even fair to the kids, who get to go on "learning" from the cold-hearted thieves instead of getting a new and more worthwhile family.

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure I understand. Without air, they would die; if I wished to kill them, I would simply kill them. The kids will have as worthwhile a family as we can scare up. And if I can't protect myself from a penniless ex-accountant, I'm not much of a wizard, am I?

[shurhaian.livejournal.com]

Certain processes in our world, while allowing for some truly impressive feats of population density in engineering, also tend to slightly befoul the air wherever there are so many people. The more people, the less "slightly" that air is befouled. The sewage is about the nicest part of it.

Point being: "Fresh air" is as opposed to "stale air", not "no air". Life in the country is often held as a good thing, here. Or at least a thing many people wish they could afford the time for.

[shurhaian.livejournal.com]

Well, the kids are going to see their mothers going forward, it's true - but they're going to be dwelling with people who are, hopefully, more morally upstanding and responsible than those two.

Without being granted a position of trust, Zascalle is not likely to have enough resources to cause any trouble - she's not going to be put in charge of anyone's accounts again anytime soon, that's for certain. She has been stripped of her capital, and with it, her power. She is being put in the care of people who will distrust her not only for her deeds, but because she is foreign. I really don't think she's likely to cause any more trouble without considerable help - and the kids will have positive role models as well.

[rowyn]

I want Z & T to recognize what they did, and how wrong it was, and how devastating it could have been for dozens of their friends. I'd've liked their punishment to reflect that somehow. Not badly enough to make you redo it, though.

[stormydragon.livejournal.com]

Short of mentador, you can't really MAKE people feel remorse.

[elorie.livejournal.com]

As indentures, do they keep any of the money produced by their work, or does it all go to the holder of the indenture? If the former, they should pay you some amount out of that until all the money they *cost* you (ie, all the money you won't get back) is paid off.

I am not crazy about the ear thing, as it could have unforeseen health consequence (damage to the inside of the ear, for example, or a propensity for infections). But you could perhaps dock their ears, enough to make the spell work and to be visible, without cutting off the whole ear.

I would be inclined to be more lenient if this had been done purely as a reaction to what happened to Feralan, as I would be pretty freaked out if my son got accidentally crossed with a demon, and might do things I otherwise wouldn't. But Zascalle was apparently planning this for a long time.

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

Usually indentured servants get a modest wage, enough to live on. I don't know what Saza intends there. Zie intends that they do scutwork in a Herethroy farming village -- assistant kitchen work, say, and housecleaning, and helping at the harvest. So they wouldn't be generating any money, the way that Dorze did. The village has communal housing and food, which presumably they will share with Zascalle and Thiane, so their basic living costs will be low.


They will have cost me roughly a million lozens [about ten million $US -bb]. I can't imagine how they could possibly pay off any fraction of that significant enough to be worth mentioning -- certainly not doing scutwork, and probably not doing any job we would trust them with. Fortunately a fair amount of that goes to Saza, who (a) needs it and (b) will be doing an errand I very much need doing, so it's not utterly without value.


We don't much want to employ them in any position that requires trust.

I don't need the whole of the outer ear, though I do want most of it, because it is a punishment as well as a practicality. I, or any master-healer, should be able to deal with most health consequences. I won't be taking the inner ear.

I agree with your last point altogether. I am pretty freaked out that my client and friend got accidentally crossed with a demon!

[elorie.livejournal.com]

Oh, I knew the term would be approximately forever. It had more to do with the repayment being an aspect of the punishment; they would be thinking about why they had to pay that money the rest of their lives.

And if you put all the money they paid into an account with interest, it would eventually equal the amount you lost. Long after they were dead.

Well...

[ysabetwordsmith.livejournal.com]

>>I can't imagine how they could possibly pay off any fraction of that significant enough to be worth mentioning -- certainly not doing scutwork, and probably not doing any job we would trust them with.<<

If one wanted to be filthy according to local custom, one might observe that a cley in the possession of a wizard can be worth a great many more lozens than a cley in the possession of an ordinary Cani, and that the gods have provided a means of transferrence. But I'm guessing that's up to Saza, since you (reasonably) want nothing more to do with them.

[stormydragon.livejournal.com]

I think Zascalle's punishment was fair (albeit not entirely sure about the lifetime aspects of the indenture) but I think Thiane's crime was less (both in terms of her acts and her culpability for those acts) and she deserved a lesser sentence.

[stormydragon.livejournal.com]

Or at least a more obvious path to rehabilitation.

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

The two were nearly-equal partners in crime, as far as I know. Thiane surrendered more nicely, to be sure, and was not in a primary position of responsibility.

The details of the indenture are up to Saza --- though I am sure zie will consult with me --- and it need not be lifetime, nor does it need to be the same for the two of them. For that matter, the loss of the external ears need to be lifetime either.

[stormydragon.livejournal.com]

I don't see how they could be equal partners given that Thiane had neither the oppurtunity nor the knowledge to participate much with the actual embezzling part versus just the escape.

Hmm...

[ysabetwordsmith.livejournal.com]

With regards to lifetime, I have a question regarding World Tree biology/theology. One of the standard causes of natural death is "longing for one's creator god." Is this more likely to happen, and more likely to happen sooner, if a person is in a miserable situation from which there is no feasible escape? That is, do miserable trapped persons and/or prisoners tend to die younger of this cause? As contrasted with more preventable causes such as, say, abuse or malnutrition.

Re: Hmm...

[alex-muridae.livejournal.com]

While I remain unskilled in the biology, xenobiology I suppose, of world tree denizens, it sounds to me to resemble the classic desire to leave the world and go west of the elves based on Tolkien's works. Life is worth living, if you will, and even a bad life is often better then death, so says the logic; eventually, however, one's soul feels a call to go back. Remember, the Soul is not the Mind; the soul has no real cognition, no real way to tell if a life is bad or not, and its desire to return to its creator would be all motivation and instinct and no thought, or so I postulate; I guess they're separate.

I'd be tempted to compare the soul/mind duality to what is taught by Sanskrit tradition terrestrially (yogic and to an extent Buddhist): in yogic belief, the ordinary mind doesn't grasp the universal mind, and fears it; on the tree, the mind parishes without the soul and body. Perhaps, then, ones mind fights against the soul's desire to return, fearing oblivion...

Luckily, we have a healer, skilled in Spiridor, Corporador, and Mentador on hand; am I close, O Wise and Ancient Zi Ri?

Re: Hmm...

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

No, they don't generally die of longing more often -- or such is my impression based on the medical literature. But they do commit suicide more often and more readily than people in better situations.

[aenodia.livejournal.com]

Even if they are not able to make a significant amount of money there still needs to be a sense of making restitution in addition to punishment. In most cases of embezzlement restitution is part of the sentence.

[nekomavin.livejournal.com]

I feel the taking of the ears is striking, and given that it potentially can be healed, about right. The vengeful side of me thinks that there should be a more permanent mark associated with the betrayal - how hard would it to be to make it difficult to heal? Difficult enough that a routine spell from the village healer would not suffice, but not so difficult that you'd have any difficulty regrowing said ears if you by some strange turning of events felt that you needed to.

Though if the regrowth of the ears is in and of itself fairly difficult, it seems unlikely that either will be able to afford to have it done.

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

A grin! Healing ears is not so difficult. Observe, in two or three days, how I make use of this fact to give Saza an extra lever to use upon them!

[xolo.livejournal.com]

I think cutting off an ear (without healing it) is frankly kind of harsh. I can understand the desire to keep some sort of magical connection to the pair, but I wouldn't maim them like that. An unexpected display of mercy might help to engender guilt, especially in Thiane, who does strike me as salvageable.

I think a Herethroy village sounds a good, calm environment, conducive to repentance and reform.

From curiosity, don't Ochirion and Feralan have a sort of magical linkage to Zascalle, at least? Could she not be traced through them?

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

Perhaps the cropped ears will arouse pity. Perhaps it will just keep the memory of their crimes alive among people who were not directly involved.

Zascalle could, perhaps, be traced through Ochirion -- I am less certain about Feralan; I should not like to try; I might get ahold of his other half's mother instead, which could be socially or militarily awkward. That connection is not as direct as a body-part; it is a matter of some elaborate magic. And, of course, if Zascalle should somehow depart and bring her children with her, that approach would be considerably more challenging.

[alex-muridae.livejournal.com]

It just occurred to me: many of us continue to think better of Thiane due to her surrender, and though the nature of the conspirator has been discussed and her guilt in the issue made plain, however, she remains instinctually loyal to Sythyry at the moment. I must wonder how she will act in a few weeks after said loyalty fades...