OOC: Next Novel (with poll)

[sythyry]

So, I'm poking at the next novel. Some particular goals:

1. A small story: about a manageable number of characters, keeping the world-shattering events down to a modest number. (Marriage of Insects and Sythyry's Vacation are small stories.)
2. Something that has some chance of being saleable. Specific desiderata:
   1. Recognizably fantasy instead of the fantasy/sf blend I seem to indulge in usually. At least, as much fantasy as World Tree is.
   2. Not so much emphasis on potentially-disturbing stuff.
   3. Minimal sex. (Yeah, I know that sex sells, but not the way I write it)
   4. Minimal war. (Yeah, I know that war sells too, but war isn't a small story.)
3. Totally in my style, and playing to my strengths.
4. Specific influences currently in mind: Cordwainer Smith's Instrumentality of Man; Roger Zelazny's Amber (first series); Alan Dean Foster's The Tar-Aiym Krang. The first two are among my favorites. Krang is not; I read it once in the mid-70's, and found it adequate.

The backstory of the setting concerns two species from different worlds. The first is the couatl, winged feathered serpents, who learned how to slither delicately between worlds (which few species can do). They were clever and friendly and gentle, and were explorers and traders, and learned much in their travels and became very civilized. In time they came to the world of the lammasu, mighty winged lions. The lammasu were not gentle. They learned the power of throwing open the gates between worlds, and they went forth and conquered a thousand worlds. Including the coatls, of course.

I'm kind of thinking of the coatls as very loosely like classical Greece, and the lammasu as very loosely like classical Rome at its peak -- and like the Instrumentality of Man from Cordwainer Smith. The domain of the lammasu is run with ruthless benevolence. The lammasu try to make it a decent place to live, for nearly everyone. This is a strategic point: it cuts way down on rebellions and other troubles. And the lammasu intend their empire to last forever. (As of the start of the story, it has been around for centuries and is quite robust.)

So here's the fussing of the day: vocabulary.

I am thinking that the vocabulary of inter-world travel will come from the coatls, since they did it first, and the vocabulary of empire will come from the lammasu. I have a modest number of technical terms in mind. I could just use "gate" or "portal" as the way you leave one world and come to the next, but that's so overworked I dunno. Anyways, I am considering trying to abuse the Nahuatl language for couatl words and the Sumerian language for lammasu ones.

I'm making some attempt to pay attention to actual Nahuatl and Sumerian. I'm ultimately more concerned with literary use than linguistic purity.

"š" is pronounced "sh". There are a few other odd letters that scholars use for Sumerian (ģ for an ng sound); I might use some of them too.

So here's my core vocabulary.

Word	Language	Short	Definition
calac	couatl	gate	Portal between tlalli. A calac leads from one tlalli to the next.
coatl	coatl	winged serpent	One of the older, more powerful, and more civilized species
Ensi	lammasu	governor	Nešgeš-appointed governor of a tlalli
gi-nun	lammasu	slave	Subject of Nešgeš, but without the priveleges of a mašda. (About 5%)
lugal	lammasu	lord	One of the most important people of the Nešgeš. (80% of lugals are lammasu)
mašda	lammasu	commoner	Citizen of the Nešgeš. (About 95% of the subjects of the Nešgeš are mašda)
Nešgeš	lammasu	empire; instrumentality	The empire of the lammasu, controlling dozens of ohtli and thousands of tlalli
ohtli	couatl	road	A string of tlalli connected by calacs
tlalli	couatl	land; worldlet	The region readily reachable by a calac. Usually a populated country some 50-100 miles in diameter. Generally much smaller than a whole world.

And here're some specific questions. I'm doing this as a LJ-quiz because it's all scales.

[Poll #1487398]

Comments

Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith.livejournal.com]

New book! Eeee, squee!

*ahem* On to serious points...

>>Recognizably fantasy instead of the fantasy/sf blend I seem to indulge in usually. At least, as much fantasy as World Tree is.<<

A potential hurdle there is that far-traveling exists both in fantasy and science fiction. In order to achieve your "recognizably fantasy" goal, you'll need to do things like: 1) keep the technology level low, 2) use terms with a fantasy flavor or at least not SF flavor (an argument for using foreign terms), and 3) include as many strongly-fantasy motifs as possible.

>>The backstory of the setting concerns two species from different worlds. The first is the couatl, winged feathered serpents, who learned how to slither delicately between worlds (which few species can do). They were clever and friendly and gentle, and were explorers and traders, and learned much in their travels and became very civilized. In time they came to the world of the lammasu, mighty winged lions. The lammasu were not gentle. They learned the power of throwing open the gates between worlds, and they went forth and conquered a thousand worlds. Including the coatls, of course.<<

Well, I'm fascinated already.

>>I'm kind of thinking of the coatls as very loosely like classical Greece, and the lammasu as very loosely like classical Rome at its peak -- and like the Instrumentality of Man from Cordwainer Smith. The domain of the lammasu is run with ruthless benevolence. <<

If you cut it down to philosophical and political basics like "ruthless benevolence" then that should work. But be careful about cultural leakage. You've picked two very distinctive inspirational cultures in Nahuatl and Sumerian, both extremely different from anything European. You don't actually need to borrow the Roman example for the latter: Sumer was a big, relatively stable society for a long time and you don't have to go far to hit Babylon, which was an expansionist empire for a while. Put those together and you've got your ruthless benevolence. (Sumerian is one of my religions, by the way, so I can recommend some resources if you need them.) Now Nahuatl will require more digging if you want to get a "gentle" society out of it. Central and South America have, well, mean hungry deities. I'd say your best bet for finding nonviolent motifs would be to search through the agrarian references and throw out all the stuff about how human sacrifice makes the crops grow.

Re: Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith.livejournal.com]

>>I am thinking that the vocabulary of inter-world travel will come from the coatls, since they did it first, and the vocabulary of empire will come from the lammasu.<<

Valid plan. Did you know that "lammasu" is one of several Sumerian words that English speakers tend to translate as "demon" ...?

>> I have a modest number of technical terms in mind. I could just use "gate" or "portal" as the way you leave one world and come to the next, but that's so overworked I dunno.<<

I strongly recommend that you use the foreign terms, which don't come with so many preconceptions. In fantasy, "Gate" and "portal" are used to refer to passageways from one dimension to another -- but those are also used in science fiction (gate more than portal) referring to star travel devices.

Anyways, I am considering trying to abuse the Nahuatl language for couatl words and the Sumerian language for lammasu ones.

>>I'm making some attempt to pay attention to actual Nahuatl and Sumerian. I'm ultimately more concerned with literary use than linguistic purity.<<

That's fair -- particularly if you take the approach that occasional travelers across dimensions can pick up or drop linguistic bits along other cultures as they go.

>>"š" is pronounced "sh". There are a few other odd letters that scholars use for Sumerian (ģ for an ng sound); I might use some of them too.<<

Works for me.

>>One of the most important people of the Nešgeš.<<

That says nothing about why they're important; only the previous field "lord" does. I suggest adding "ruler" or "politician" or something like that to the longer description to refine this.

>>Citizen of the Nešgeš. (About 95% of the subjects of the Nešgeš are mašda)<<

Add that to gi-nun and you have 100%. That sounds wrong. You'd need at least 1% rulers and other higher-class people, and 5% would be more plausible. Or if the rulers are part of the citizen class, then you need to specify that as a slave/free division. Otherwise people tend to look for a low, middle, and high class division.

On the whole, this looks like something I'd enjoy reading. As for whether it's marketable ... I'm not sure. I think the things you do best are not what the mainstream really wants, and you don't have much taste for the mainstream's favorites which are essentially variations on a theme. That's going to be a challenge. Hmmm ... you might try scanning TV Tropes or any other good guide to popular motifs, and try to identify which ones prominent in fantasy are ones you like, then include as many of those as you can. It'd be fan service, essentially, but it might help boost the marketability.

Anyhow, I hope this is useful input.

Re: Thoughts

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

Thanks very much, as always.

(Briefly: lugal/lords are mashda/citizens, with extra authority. The upper classes are mashda too (except for the rare criminal boss or something who is a gi-num/mere-subject). They have other titles as well (tbd, and most of them world-specific); but mashda is an important, if common and broad, status. Details remain to be figured out.)

Re: Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith.livejournal.com]

Okay, then ... perhaps use "slaves" and "freefolk" or "freeborn" as the terms. Seeing "citizen" tends to bring up "middle class," which is confusing in this context.

I look forward to watching this project evolve.

Re: Thoughts

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

I'm not planning to take much inspiration from Sumerian or mesoAmerican culture or religion. I've got a particular culture [fuzzily] in mind, and it owes more to the Instrumentality of Man than anything else. The Greece/Rome analogy is more structural: a weak (but smart and stylish) power getting absorbed by a bigger one, but strongly informing the big one's culture and style.

I would like a couple good pointers on Sumerian religion, though.