Semi-OOC -- a question inspired by the previous scene.

[sythyry]

Out of Curiosity

How do you feel about body-play with temporarily transformed people?

Let's be a bit more specific. For this question, let's say you're sharp if you're transaffectionate, or cisaffectionate, or mostly straight, or mostly gay, or such things as that. If you have some specific, physical, overriding reason for rejecting people, and a reason that can be changed with moderate magic. If you're not sharp, we'll call you generous: so, a libertine who plays with all species, or a bisexual. [Sythyry and Bard worked together on this question; Sythyry doesn't believe that any primes are neither traff nor cis, and doesn't have a short phrase for "straight" or "gay". -bb]

This definition isn't intended to cover topics like primality, intelligence, social status, and other things which are not easily subject to mere magic. Unless, of course, you are in a world in which they are.

The intent is that "sharp" and "generous" both be pleasing terms, not the least bit offensive.

So, sharp people might or might not care to indulge in body-play with someone transformed into their preferred sort. If you only play with males, what do you think of a female or hermaphrodite or co-lover who has, temporarily, become male?

A generous person in principle shouldn't care -- but I can imagine someone who likes their men male and their women female, so even that isn't decided.

For the sake of this poll, pretend that the circumstances of the potential encounter were such that you could and otherwise would take advantage of it; e.g., a hypothetical alternate self who was not under that pesky vow of chastity.

[Poll #1457630]

Comments

[elorie.livejournal.com]

I can't answer the question because I don't have a "preferred form." But lacking a preference doesn't mean that I'm not aware of real differences in social cues, behavior, etc. It *might* make a difference to me how I met them, as in if I met them in one form to find out that's not how they usually are, just because I have a personal quirk about people Changing the Rules on me (I didn't say it was rational. Some of my friends might attest that it isn't). It would make a *lot* of difference if they didn't tell me and I found out later. I would be angry, not because it matters in and of itself but because I would wonder what else they weren't telling me.

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

I should have asked about that!

Unfortunately it's hard to edit a quiz.

[gavinfox.livejournal.com]

What an interesting poll! Sythyry, I was joking with your translator that your language needs a way to say, "I am attracted to male orrens, female rassimel, (or another specific prime species / gender combination). Then we started figuring out how many possible combinations with liking all possible prime species/gender combinations there are...

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

The math is not so hard.

[gavinfox.livejournal.com]

lessee. there are four genders of herethroy, one of zi ri, two of orren, gormorror, cani, rassimel, khytsoyis, sleeth. So seventeen options, of which any prime could be attracted to from one to seventeen others. So 2 to the 17th power, or 131,072 options. Which means, to me, if you wanted to be precise, you can't really come up with a unique word for each, you would need a system to generate a word that describes your given orientation. But I am probably overthinking this. Though, to me at least, it is an interesting mind exercise! At least the idea that these preferences can exist, and that there would be, potentially, that many!

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

Times, potentially, 17 for the person who is looking. [E.g., "lesbian" and "straight man" are different words in English.]

Fortunately only two words are needed in practice: cisaffectionate and transaffectionate.

[gavinfox.livejournal.com]

I would say it depends on the city state in question! Some city-states might have more culture with regards to this sort of thing. I bet rassimel cliques based on sexual culture probably would like more than two words! That way, they can have more specific identity, and the size of the cliques is probably more manageable, and other practical matters!

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

For this particular topic, cis and trans are enough! I'm sure there are Rassimel organizations devoted to the genital worship of those who wear ground ground-nut sandwiches for armor. They do not deserve special words from the rest of us.

[gavinfox.livejournal.com]

Surely ONE more word is useful? One that means, "Attracted to all prime species, including their own"? What are the main and secondary meanings of the word "libertine" in your culture and tongue?

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

No such thing.

[gavinfox.livejournal.com]

No such word, or no such example in any prime society? The reason I asked about the word "libertine", was because you implied it had a similar but not exactly the same meaning, and I wanted to know the specifics of the word you were using.

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

If I meant "no such word", I would have said, "no such word".

Libertines do not love all species. They enjoy them, which is a related although quite different concept.

[gavinfox.livejournal.com]

Thanks for clarifying. Do you think that, in a few decades or centuries, culture will change enough that Primes let such a concept exist? Because I am sure that as soon as there is cultural permission for such a viewpoint to exist, probably including a term for them, there will probably be a not insignificant number of people who feel that way! That's what happens here. As soon as some slightly odd behaviour is no longer shamed or thought to not exist so strongly, people who claim they felt that way all the time come out, glad that finally they can interact with people of the same sort.

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

We allow the concept to exist, but it persists in not existing. Crude of it. Perhaps it is humiliated by making no sense.

And I have worked quite hard the last century-plus on that matter of helping people in their "interacting with people of the same sort"

[gavinfox.livejournal.com]

Well maybe you should come up with a specific term for it then! That often helps. I personally don't think you are doing a very good job of allowing it to exist. Why don't you have a philosophical discussion with some of the wrongfolk regarding what categories they think need recognizing? I suspect there may even be someone on your ship who probably feels this way inside, or perhaps feels like they only like a FEW prime species. Hell, I am pretty sure you have a strong orren bias, and I would suspect an anti khytsoyis bias!

[zeeth_kyrah]

Cis and trans seem so sharply divided for you. At least I can use the "pan" prefix to wrap such concepts together.

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

Ketherian is at least as rich as English! The issue is not the lack of the word: it is the lack of people described by the word!

[stormydragon.livejournal.com]

[Plot I'd like to see: Sythyry falls for someone who, unbeknowst to hir, is "pan" ends up losing them due to hir intolerance]

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

[Something like that, coming up soon! -bb]

[stormydragon.livejournal.com]

[hopefully shi'll learn from the experience]

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

[Zie does learn things. Slowly, but zie does. In many cases they are some approximation of the right things. -bb]

[mufi.livejournal.com]

If you count all the words the Rassimel use for the various subjects, your dictionary does not fit in any library, even with the copious locador!

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

I dare no such enumeration!

[redbird]

And beyond that, I guess, a person might, after identifying themselves as transaffectionate, specify that they were attracted to rassimel in the course of politely declining an offer from an orren or cani. That there isn't a single word for a concept doesn't mean it's difficult to express in the language or context in question. (My language doesn't, as far as I know, have a single word for "purple short-sleeved shirt," but that phrasing is simple and clear to anyone fluent in the language.)

[gavinfox.livejournal.com]

I guess you can have more unique words for "likes all primes", "likes all primes but own species", "likes own species only", "likes all primes of same gender", and the like!

related

[winterbeast.livejournal.com]

another question concerning muck play: if you know the player is male, but running a female character, is an affair at that point gay behavior?

Re: related

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

[You can take that as a real-world equivalent to this question if you wish! --bb]

Re: related

[zeeth_kyrah]

[Actually, my own POV varies on this, based on partially subconscious cues..]

[redbird]

Some of my people would say that the answers to this connect to how essentialist a person is/their thinking is. That is, granting that (for example) orren differ from rassimel differ from zi ri differ from gormoror…, how important are those differences, and in how many areas? From another angle, if (say) a zi ri was in orren or rassimel form, would zi still feel/smell/act/think enough like a zi ri to be disconcerting to a potential partner who wasn't attracted to zi ri in their own form?

For what it's worth, I'm not much of an essentialist, and, on another level, I think that if I couldn't tell, any personality/attitude difference isn't essential. (This is in the context of a pleasant hour or afternoon together; any number of difference that don't matter there might if the other person were suggesting a longer-term involvement, with commitments and plans that went beyond the immediate and physical.)

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

That is the heart of the matter, I think.
I feel and smell like an Orren when I am Orren: Cloak of Another God grants a perfect physical semblence.

Acting and thinking is more subtle. I have never had an actual Wild Rush: I have been that foolish and frantic, but without the speed and panache of an actual Orren. If I don't pay attention, I might well use phrases that were trendy a century ago and are now obsolete. Someone who suspected I was a Zi Ri -- e.g., someone who had noticed a powerful Mutoc Corpador spell glimmering about me -- might get extra clues this way.

[gavinfox.livejournal.com]

But you don't quite think or Wild Rush like an Orren?

Is there any "not hideously evil" spell that would let you Wild Rush properly, or sample the other (not quite physical) aspects of semblance of the other prime species? Or would anything that does that fall under the category of "hideously evil mentador"?

[mufi.livejournal.com]

There is the very simple way!

You are simply to be mentioning this desire when Vae is around!

Very, very, the simple!

(Also, the doom. Very, very, the doom. Mentador would indeed be involved, as would Spiridor and Magiador, presumably. I would not want such a spell cast on me, even when not from a nendrai with a blind spot regarding helping.)

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

Tempador magic suffices for this purpose, for me!

[stormydragon.livejournal.com]

One big question, for me anyways, is WHY they are transforming? Are they unhappy with their natural form and consider the transformed version? Do they spend most of their time transformed or untransformed? It it just a one time thing or do they do it regularly?

[arkofeden.livejournal.com]

These are pretty much my questions as well. Ordinarily I'm rather heavily attached to my preferences, but if I understood the circumstances then my sympathies (and potential acceptance of any offers) could swing strongly for or against the person.

--Riss.
(For the record...this is a multiple system's account, but I'm the only one answering. :B)

[gavinfox.livejournal.com]

Oh! You should ask sythyry if something similar to what is up with you, like with the multiples, exists on the World Tree. With their ability to see and interact with minds and souls and stuff much more, I bet there might be an interesting answer!

Also, as near as I can tell, soulbonding and whatnot are probably the only way someone from WT-verse can actually visit us. *Isn't one to say that, once the ideastuff of a setting has been created, that so-called-fictives from that ideastuff aren't real enough to exist. Usually likes to know about the differences between their version and the author's version though! There are usually differences...*

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

Excellent questions, and beyond the scope of my survey! "Avoiding excess attention" in this case, but there are other reasons as well: "Hatred of one's natural species" being one I know quite well.

[gavinfox.livejournal.com]

Sythyry... why do you hate your species?

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

Well, they're fine companions. Except for my relatives, who are most of them. But I wouldn't want to share pleasure with one of them.

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

Oops, I misrememebered that. I don't hate my species. My mari of many years, Mynthë, hated being Herethroy.

[gavinfox.livejournal.com]

*Giggles*

Okay okay. Why do you hate sharing pleasure with, loving, having deep friendships with, or whatever sorts of interactions you really dislike, your species? Anyone I know whose sexual identity is something they think about, and is a good part of their life, tends to have a reason (or at least an excuse) for their viewpoints. Yes, I understand you are traff, but can you explain or describe your specific type of reaction to zi ri?

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

Sharing pleasure: holds no interest for me.

[Erotic] love: same.

Deep friendships: I have a few, mostly by correspondance.

[cowboy-r.livejournal.com]

You don't get to be halfway through your life expectancy and single by being any good at questions like these. So while I've attempted to answer honestly, I don't know that they're very useful data.

I do, however, have an anecdote to share.

I had a partner with whom I was very much in love, someone studying to be a veterinarian. Some things happened, and she chose to leave in a rather final way, which created some tension and weirdness between us.

Not horribly long after that, I met another young woman in a place I went to a great deal, and had for some time. She told me that she was a medical student, and I became rather close with her. We became very good friends, and then it was revealed that she was actually the same young woman, wearing a funny hat which kept me from recognizing her.

I felt rather angry that she had concealed her identity from me, and said rather angry words to her. I stopped going to the place where she had arranged to meet me again, and so we dropped out of touch.

In later years, as I thought back over it, I realized that I had perhaps been over-hasty to say angry things to her. After all, she had wanted to be friends with me badly enough that she found a funny hat with which she could disguise herself well enough that I wouldn't recognize her, so that she could be close to me without the weirdness.

I don't know what I would do today.

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

Oh, my. That's ... quite a strange story. And quite an impressive hat.

*hug*

[gavinfox.livejournal.com]

I think the funny hat miiiight be a metaphor or replacement term for a concept that doesn't exist in your world? Not sure!

[stormydragon.livejournal.com]

He's just too embarrased to admit it was just his girlfriend in a pair of glasses.