(no subject)

[sythyry]

Lost-Eyes [17 Hispis 4385]

Kantele:"In summary, Dorze is an escaped indenturee of your friend and colleague Kzip La Hish in Oorah Thrassen." Dorze said nothing, but wagged his tail quietly. Kantele continued, "And of course similar troubles come with Lost-Eyes."

Lost-Eyes:"Much less trouble than Dorze! I am a free woman, unencumbered by legal obligations."

Kantele:"You are a wicked sort of free woman, if your concept of 'trouble' is merely 'legal obligation'!"

Lithia:"Kantele! That's not fair and you know it."

Kantele:"Bons mots aside, Lost-Eyes is, if anything, more troublesome to have aboard than Dorze. Lost-Eyes, please be so kind as to explain your ancestry?"

Lost-Eyes:"I am ultimately the descendant of forty-eight Orren from Inihithre. They had several hundred names among them, and I can't quote them all."

Me:"That is not particularly specific. Every Orren now living can say the same."

Inconnu:"Not exactly! My mother's girlfriend knows all the names of the first-created Orren."

Lost-Eyes:"I am therefore less unusual than Inconnu's mother's girlfriend, and even less likely to be troublesome."

Kantele:"Your parentage, wicked girl!"

Lost-Eyes:"Oh, just an Orren couple in Oorah Thrassen."

Kantele:"The male of that couple being Nangbang, until recently the chieftan of the ecclesiastical störmgething of the Temple of the Dark Trinity in Oorah Thrassen. And, incidentally, he served as High Priest in your so-very-eventful consecration not long ago. That is the man whose daughter has stowed away on your skyboat."

Me:"Lost-Eyes? Has Kantele explained the matter properly?"

Lost-Eyes:"Not a bit! She didn't explain that I am the adult daughter of Nangbang -- I have been officially adult for weeks now."

Kantele:"An impressive claim of maturity, to be sure. One wonders what sort of amazing displays of rationality and sensibility you will exhibit when you are months past that miraculous date. Still ... where do you live?"

Lost-Eyes:"Nowhere. I'm running away from home."

Lithia:"She got you on that one, Kantele!"

Kantele:"She did indeed, and she evaded the question. Where did you live before you ran away?"

Lost-Eyes:"Well, that was mostly with my parents."

Kantele:"So, these two stowaways are closely associated with two mighty wizards and priests of Oorah Thrassen."

Lithia:"Only one of each!"

Kantele:"In any case, with more mighty priests and wizards than are present on Strayway. Thus they bring to us trouble in generous baskets spilling over!"

Grinwipey:"Well, tell 'em to put it in the larder with all the other trouble we brought."

Me:"They do bring us a good deal of trouble. Dorze, Lost-Eyes, can you tell me how you got onto my skyboat?"

Love Story

Lost-Eyes:"We've been in love forever! Years and years!"

Dorze:"I don't think that's forever to a Zi Ri."

Me:"It's close enough at your age though. Pray go on."

Lost-Eyes:"My parents were scandalized. They're very proper and formal Orren. They want to be important; they want everything done right. Well, I'm wrong and Dorze is wrong, but we want to love and live together anyhow."

Kantele:"You certainly know the right word of 'wrong' to catch Sythyry's attention. That sounds contrived to me, as if you know zir history."

Lost-Eyes:"If it please you, we do know something about zir history, about Castle Wrong and all. If we'd been in Vheshrame, we'd have moved in there, sure as death."

Kantele:"If we'd allowed you!"

Me:"We're not that picky. We let Inconnu in, after all."

Inconnu:"Hey! Chirp!"

Me:"Please continue, O stowaways."

Lost-Eyes:"We asked Sazandigraa for help. Zie is known to be somewhat sympathetic to such matters, and zie is not particularly afraid of La Hish or Papa. Zie told us to wait a few months -- this was a few months ago -- and to ask you for asylum when you came to visit."

Me:"A sensible plan, which you are about to get around to?"

Dorze: [with much tail-wagging] "Yes, please. We are a pair of traff lovers, fleeing an unjust situation in Oorah Thrassen. May we please place ourselves under your protection?"

Me:"May you please explain, before I decide, how you came to stow away on my skyboat?"

Lost-Eyes:"Sazandigraa was supposed to introduce us. We'd made arrangements with zir on the eighth of Hispis. Zie didn't want to do it then, though."

Grinwipey:"Well, ain't that a Reluu-rumping surprise!" (No, it is not. Grinwipey had just blackmailed Saza, and I am not surprised that Saza was in no mood to help the couple.)

Dorze:"Zir secretary put us off a couple of days. It was a better idea to take asylum right as you left, anyhow."

Lithia:"But you'd done that big consecration, and you were asleep, and we couldn't wake you up."

Me:"Fair enough."

Lithia:"So we talked it over, and decided to let them on board. We thought you'd approve of them, anyhow. Half the people on board are your clients under about those terms."

Me:"Yes, and I insisted on interviewing everyone who came to Castle Wrong before they moved in, too."

Lithia:"They're not exactly moving in. They're just getting passage to Srineia."

Me:"Why are you going to Srineia? It's not particularly a good place for traff couples. You'd be better off going to Vheshrame."

Dorze:"We need to be out of range of Kzip's spells and Nangbang's influence. Srineia is better."

Me:"Fair enough. Lithia, why didn't you check with me when I did wake up?"

Lithia:"You spent the whole day breaking Vae's helpfulness, and then went back to bed. Then we were going to, but we got that call for help from that inistella."

Me:"Why not this morning, then?"

Lithia:"Well, we're out of spell-range now, and it's not much longer to Srineia. It didn't seem that important to bother you for just a couple days' passage."

Me:"I see. Any other surprises?"

Everyone, eventually:"Not that we are willing to admit at the moment."

Quandary

And now I am sitting in a fireplace, thoroughly annoyed at everyone except loyal Phaniet, trying to figure out what to do.

Sythyry the Shipmaster: The custom among shipmasters and sky pilots is not to tolerate stowaways. Particularly obnoxious ones can simply be tossed overboard, with a spell to help them survive the landing unless they are unlucky if you are feeling kind. Ordinary ones are to be let out at the next port of call. This is an important custom, according to my guild training. If stowaways are treated with no unnecessary kindness, fewer people will be inclined to stow away.

Also, I am rather annoyed with Saza and Lithia for taking such a troublesome liberty with me. Saza, I suppose, may feel that it is a fair exchange for the pile of trouble I gave zir. Lithia should know better.

Sythyry the Traff: They're not the first wrong-matched people to show up on my door and ask for my help. (Of course, usually such people stop at the door until I invite them in.) If they had started out politely, I daresay I might well have helped them out ... maybe; see the next paragraph for the troubles. And they did try a couple times to be polite before they decided to stow away.

Sythyry the Wizard: I'm going to be dealing with Kzip and Nangbang for a long while. Kzip is presumably as immortal as I am. Nangbang may or may not be; I don't know. Starting out my relationship with them with "I removed your indentured servant and your daughter from your city so that they could indulge their unnatural lusts without your masterful and parental attentions" is unlikely to lead to a comfortable, friendly relationship in any sort of near term.

Sythyry the Reasonable Person: I certainly owe Nangbang gratitude, if nothing else, for his help with Accanax. I imagine he is not terribly delighted at his daughter's vanishment. Returning her to him would be an act of kindness to a person whom I sort of owe such an act to. Kzip's claim on Dorze is a widely-recognized legal claim, and any reasonable person would feel some obligation to return him, too.

Sythyry on Vacation: I don't feel like flying back up to Ketheria at this point. We're quite far from it. I suppose I could put Dorze and Lost-Eyes on a skyboat headed back up. Which would mean paying their passage out of my own accounts; they certainly didn't bring enough money for it. And I'd have no particular assurance that they'd stay on that skyboat.

Sythyry with the Pet Nendrai: If I were truly annoyed, I would introduce them to Vae and ask her to help them out. I can't imagine what she might do. I'm sure it would be devastating. I'm nearly that annoyed with the stowaways, but I don't think I want to be as random as Vae would be.

I will do what I will do, of course. I've mostly made up my mind. But what's your advice?

[Poll #1413449]

Comments

[kensan-oni.livejournal.com]

Personally, I would turn them into golden Antelopes and have them earn their passage to the next continent by pulling your boat.

.. and this has nothing to my partialness for Antelopes, mind you.

[foomf.livejournal.com]

Arguably, this is the fault of the petulant cousin. Karmic balances are currently pressing down on petulant cousin, and application of appropriate penitential irritation should elevate said cousin, if they are deallt with well. However, there is no apparent polite way to require that cousin fix things.

Contact Kzip and Nangbang. Do not send them back. Politely request that their owners come for them if they want them, and have them bill the pseudo-cousin who failed to communicate their actions, for the transportation. This is a situation where explaining exactly what happened, truthfully, could result in some enlightenment.

Meanwhile, if Vae finds out, Helpfulness is inevitably going to ensue. It's just too tempting, even for non-Vae (as evidenced.)

And to elaborate on the "other" comment ... should Vae choose that action, would they still be attracted to one another? Or is their mutual attraction built on the forbiddenness alone?

[rowyn]

I wouldn't be particularly annoyed with Dorze and Lost-Eyes, because they were more-or-less acting under the belief that they were there legitimately. Grinwipey and Lithia, giving the appearance of your auhority, told them they could come aboard. Still a *little* annoyed, because they could guess that they were bringing you a lot of trouble and that you wouldn't necessarily approve of the actions of your apparent agents. But whatever I did to or for them now would be much the same as what I'd do if they'd asked me before coming aboard the Strayway.

I'm much less impressed by Lithia and Grinwipey's litany of excuses for not telling you earlier, though. :P

[xolo.livejournal.com]

Personally, I'd be inclined to buy them return tickets, and perhaps give them a bit of spending money for incidental travel expenses, and if they left the ship before they got back home, well, you can't be blamed for that, or at least not very much.

On reading the other comments, I like Foomf's idea better, though. (I think 'Foomf' is a pretty cool name too, but that's another matter.) Telling the truth and pleading their case may make things better. The wizards of Oorah Thrassen are presumably as desirous of your good opinion as you are of theirs. Some sort of accomodation can perhaps be worked out.

And it's really sad that 'tell the truth' is one of the options that I'd not have thought of on my own.

[kensaro.livejournal.com]

Agreed, send them back on another skyboat, and send a message to Kzip and Nangbang explaining the situation, not your fault if they decide to skedaddle, this puts further trouble squarely on their head and gives you plausible deniability towards Kzip and Nangbang.

[xolo.livejournal.com]

For myself, the more I consider the matter, the more I like Foomf's idea. Lost Eyes, as she pointed out, is an adult. Her parents may be scandalized that she's traff, but she's also now helped an apprentice to flee his master, which doesn't help paint their family as pillars of society. I came from a family with a 'social climbing' faction within it, so I've seen this kind of thing from the inside. Her family are probably concerned ATM about settling the matter with as little publicity as possible, and about maintaining good relations with Lost Eyes. Considering how far they *have* risen in society, they're probably smart enough to understand that trying to manage her life for her isn't going to work anymore, and that if they want a quiet outcome, they'll have to reach some accomodation that takes her needs into account too.

La Hish is presumably less concerned with her apprentice having turned out to be wrongfolk than with the economic loss. I really doubt that she's that terrible or exploitive of a master. She agreed, and apparently without too much fuss, to stop having Dorze buy extra spells when he spoke with her about the issue. It may well be that she felt herself to be acting dutifully. She's a major wizard, and turning an apprentice loose before he's learned what she feels he ought to know wouldn't reflect well on her professionalism.

Good things may well come of talking with everyone. La Hish and Lost Eyes will probably be the hardest nuts to crack: La Hish because she's got an investment to look after; and Lost Eyes because she may not fully appreciate her family's motives, which will lead her to want concessions they won't give, and to scorn as 'insincere' bargaining positions that she could use to great effect.

[rowyn]

If you were feeling particularly evil, you could ask them if they wanted Vae's help. Then, if they said yes, they'd be out of your feathers and whatever happened to them would be their own fault. >:)

[ionotter.livejournal.com]

Except Sythyry knows what Vae can do, whereas the two naughty brats do not.

Doing such a thing with a clear concience would require informing them about Vae. Somehow, I think they would reconsider things after that?

[sianmink.livejournal.com]

may depend on whether a Wild Rush is involved, but that would really be a little unfair.

[cowboy-r.livejournal.com]

Might the ignorant monster (who has much experience with ships) suggest a solution?

They say they're not truly asking for asylum, so much as passage to Srineia. You say your training as a ship master requires you to put them ashore at the next port as they are stowaways. It seems to me that these are not incompatible goals. Simply make Srineia your next port, and put them ashore there.

Then, in time to come, if anyone says, "Hey, did you take my daughter / indentured servant?" You look blank, say, "Who, pray tell?" And then feign to remember that there were two stowaways, to which you did not pay much attention, having them put in the twentieth-best guest chamber, and discharged at the next port.

If they truly are adults, then let them make their way under their own steam.

[terrana.livejournal.com]

If I were a more reasonable and less vindictive person, this is more or less what I'd suggest. Consider how much more satisfying the Vae-based solution is - some of that doom that you don't have to fix for once!

[mazlynn.livejournal.com]

Being a monster with little knowledge of your world's geography, I don't know if this is feasible. But I would vote for putting them ashore at the next most convenient port. But if they don't annoy you overly much in the meantime, make the next planned port their desired destination, as the previous monster suggested.

Then I would send a letter to their respective authority figures letting them know that you discovered them as stowaways on your ship, and kicked them off at the next convenient port. If by the time you get to Srineia they seem to be redeemable primes, you can send the letter back by the slowest possible caravan, and let the stowaways know that you are doing so to give them a head start. If they've continued to annoy you, you can send it express mail.

[vernononfm.livejournal.com]

Several have already suggested some very excellent courses of action. I also advise traveling on to Srineia, not stopping before then, and let them make their own way after that. Perhaps let them do some work aboard the ship to pay for the food they're eating.
And, when all is said and done, if anyone ever asks, you can simply reply that you didn't let them onto your ship. It's the truth, as you had no involvement in the matter.

[stormydragon.livejournal.com]

First principles: people exist only for themselves; using them as a tool for your own ends without consent is evil.

So returning Lost Eyes to Nangbang in order to get on his good side is clearly wrong. No matter what you feel you owe him, it doesn't justify particpating in the enslavement of his daughter.

Likewise, as Droze did not agree to his indenture, it's not a morally valid claim on him, whatever the law says on the matter. Again, participating in his enslavement would be wrong.

Beyond that, the question is, do you want to shield them from two potentially powerful adversaries? If not, put them off the ship, either now or at the next port of call. Otherwise, what do you think would be best for them? Staying with you or staying in Sirenia?

[terrycloth.livejournal.com]

Morally, the indenture might be invalid, but he still owes Kzip la Hish a lot of money, both for the spells (which he can sell for full price in Srinea, after all) and for paying for his entire upbringing.

Of course, since he can sell the spells for full price in Srineia, he can probably get the money together for her rather quickly while not under her control.

[stormydragon.livejournal.com]

I don't believe you can generally be responsible for something performed under duress.

[terrycloth.livejournal.com]

Legally, he can, that's already been established.

Morally, he's profited a great deal at her expense. The terms of 'paying off his debt' are unfair, but so is him deciding to just walk away from them.

[stormydragon.livejournal.com]

I'm reminded of the slave owners at the end of the civil war how thought their now freed bondsmen ought to pay them back for the room and board they received during their enslavement.

She didn't buy him those spells or room and board for his profit, but for her own. Anything profit he did receive was purely conincidental. As it is, the fact she invested capital in order to be able to more effectively exploit him doesn't create any moral obligation for him to protect her interest in that capital.

If she's upset by that, then maybe she should stop enslaving people.

[terrycloth.livejournal.com]

Slavery isn't really the closest applicable situation here, though -- she got his indenture as a less-altruistic form of adoption, and controlled his life and the choices he made with his money as a parental figure as much as as a slave-owner.

He didn't choose to be indentured to her, because he was like four, not because she beat him over the head until he signed (or someone beat him over the head, chained him up, and sold him to her).

If he was an american-style slave, then treating her as an evil evil person who deserves to be screwed left and right would be appropriate. But that's not how it is.

[stormydragon.livejournal.com]

We have a person, guilty of no crime, pressed into servitude without their consent for the benefit of third party, and required to engage in forced labor for the benefit of their new master, with the threat of violent force being used to enforce obedience and prevent escape.

How exactly is that different than slavery?

[terrycloth.livejournal.com]

That describes *any* social obligation backed by law. Not everything that you are required to do that you don't want to is 'slavery'. Trying to frame them as slavery is cheapening the horror of slavery itself.

And I explained how this in particular is different in the message you responded to, but of course you only bothered to read the first sentence.

[stormydragon.livejournal.com]

By your logic, none of the people born into slavery in the US were really slaves since they had become slaves when they were small children instead of being beaten and kidnapped as adults.

And did you read Sythyry's discussion of how indentured servants are punished? Having your bones bursting out of your flesh is hardly less severe than being whipped.

[rowyn]

Yes ... I have a hard time resolving this point, myself. My general feeling is this:

A) Kzip's behavior is immoral, insofar as one can argue an absolute morality
B) Kzip's behavior is legal, and in several senses kind -- specifically in her agreement not to buy more spells for him, though unkind in others (not paying him much). This ameliorates (A) to some degree.
C) Indentured servitude is not American-style slavery: servants have (limited) rights, receive payment for their service, and their children are born free. As you say elsewhere, calling it slavery weakens the word slavery. It's still *wrong*, but not *as* wrong.
D) That Kzip's actions are immoral does not absolve Dorze from acting morally.

So I'm inclined to say this:

* If Dorze hates being a spell scribe, asked Kzip not to make him one, and will never scribe another spell again, then never paying her back is reasonable.

* If Dorze intends to set up shop in Srineia as a spell scribe, he has a moral obligation to repay Kzip for the cost of the spells and some moderate amount of interest.

If Dorze's feelings are somewhere in the middle, it's muddier. But I do think that running off to Srineia to set up shop using expensive schooling gained at another's expense is morally dubious. Even if you didn't have a choice about being receiving the training.

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

Dorze will be a spell scribe: he has no other trade, except as a mediocre mage with no particular specialty, I suppose. It is easy work, if a bit tedious, and if he gets to keep all the money it should support him and Lost-Eyes quite nicely.

[rowyn]

Then I hope he chooses to repay his debt to his (hopefully erstwhile) mistress.

It'd occured to me that if he really hated being a spell scribe for some reason, he could do some menial labor or work as a servant or somesuch. But that didn't seem a very likely route.

I am clearly missing something

[redbird]

But if they're both claiming only Orren ancestry, in what sense are they a traff pair? Is one or both lying about their parentage?

Is the theory here that because each of them is also attracted to non-Orren, that makes them traff, and therefore their relationship traff?

Re: I am clearly missing something

[calamitous-cani.livejournal.com]

Dorze is Cani. Clearly Kzip La Hish is unusually remiss in her duties, and Droze clearly has a bond of duty to Lost-Eyes, considering the Cani nature. I would wonder what Dorze feels his duty to Kzip La Hish is at this point, in spite of the conflicting bonds of loyalty.
I do agree that it is entirely reasonable to contact both wizards to notify them of the location of the pair, but that it is likely a fair claim that it is unreasonable to turn around at this point. The next ship home seems a reasonable enough plan - it is not unlikely that they will encounter Vae on their own along the trip though, regardless of what you decide, and remove the problem from your responsibility...

Re: I am clearly missing something

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

Dorze works for Kzip. He rarely actually meets her in person.

[shaterri.livejournal.com]

I certainly can't claim that this is the best solution; in some ways, it may be the worst — it certainly requires the most work on your part! But I have to think that turning them over for Vae to try and help would certainly be the most memorable thing for them, and ideally it would — at least in the end — be a lesson relatively gently applied...

[zeeth_kyrah]

... I forgot what I was going to write. I kind of read the other responses before I started on mine.

[kobolds.livejournal.com]

I think I'd take them back, this would show that I'd had no part in their leaving and I recognised where they were supposed to be. Hopefully this would show that a friendly working relationship would be desired.

Then I would do what I could to argue their cases.

For Dorze this SHOULD be as simple as paying off his debts and indenturing him to a fairer master (you), but, we both now that this is an unacceptably small amount of doom in your life and something will probably go wrong with it.

As for Lost-Eyes. I have no idea at this point of time beyond just trying to convince Nangbang that his daughter being happy should be more important than who it is with. I have not even got a loose plan for how to do this and would probably only fil my life with doom.

But I'd be happy I tried.

(I also seem to have misread the what I think would vae do with them field as the space for the other comment. Minus awareness points to me)

Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith.livejournal.com]

I think I'd handle the two aspects -- they are traff, whom Sythyry usually helps; they are runaways and stowaways, who should be discouraged -- separately. So let them stay on the ship, but provide punishment:

1) Require the runaways to write letters to master and parent, explaining their absence and apologizing for the abruptness of departure.

2) The value of the indentured servant should be paid off, which should remove most of the master's interest in retaliation. Sythyry can pay that now, and take the funds -- plus interest, if desired -- out of the servant zirself. A spell scribe would surely be of use to a wizard!

3) Both of the stowaways should be required to work for the ship's benefit, having endangered the ship. I am sure there are plenty of unpleasant chores needed on a skyship. Or some could be invented if spells are currently cleaning all the chamberpots, or whatever.

4) The crew ... freesh, they're Sythyry's friends, it's normal for them to bring home baskets of trouble. *ponder* Maybe fine them some cley, if any of them know spellbinding and can create something useful with it, or even just fuel routine spells that someone else normally has to cover. Most people dislike being low on cley.

[shurhaian.livejournal.com]

I (belatedly) voted for bringing them along to Srineia, but only in that you were going there as your next intended port of call; the 'next convenient place' seemed to have connotations of it being somewhere on the way, but it still might be less convenient than just going where you were going already. I wouldn't have suggested doing anything special for them once there, though - they're already eating some of the food