OOC -- Wrath of Trees poll

[sythyry]

I don't know that this is a problem at all, but it showed up in today's writing and it kind of bothers me a bit, so ... poll.

First, a few characters:

Character	Type	Role	Sexuality
Melyl	Narrator	The narrator. The sentient and understandably eponymously wrathful tree. She does a few things that could be considered evil, for reasons that I think readers will appreciate even if they might not do the same thing.	Chaste. No interest in dating either (a) nonsentients, or (b) outside her own phylum. That leaves nobody.
Pyzot	Melyl's archenemy	The arrogant, reckless natural philosopher who summoned and enslaved Melyl. On the good side, she's clever, smart, loyal to her same-species friends, and honorable. I was trying to set her up as the villain, but she's coming out as more of a flawed hero.	Faithful to her husband.
Ffip	Melyl's friend; Pyzot's protege	A kid (initially), psychically bound to Melyl as her master and interpreter. Melyl's friend. Pyzot's protegee. Smart and devious and weaselly.	Chaste, so far.
Ikik	Ffip's personal enemy; everyone's enemy	Originally a minor character who was going to get written out 1/4 of the way through, but he found a good job among the other characters' actual enemies. Brave, charming, brutal, sluttish. In the section I just wrote, he does something that would be considered sexual harassment, in 21st century America.	Slut.

All the characters but Melyl are lakku, a not-quite-human species who seem pretty lecherous on the whole. Lakku women go on heat (though the ideal is to be grimly chaste (if single) or faithful (if married) when on heat). Lakku are supposed to be kinda like humans, but a bit worse.

Anyways, I have noticed that the characters I think are morally better (excluding sexuality) are generally chaste or faithful, and the ones I think are more wicked are generally more slutty. Which isn't at all what I was trying to do -- I originally and consciously intended Pyzot to be chaste and wicked.

[Poll #797552]

Comments

[justicezero.livejournal.com]

Well, the thing I note is that it isn't necessarilly "sluttish vs chaste", so much as it is their ability to meet a certain ideal. If the 'sluttish' characters are vocal about the benefits of not being sluttish, it's a flaw. If either direction is portrayed as a valid approach, it's just window dressing. You can always have a discussion with a heroic slutty character or evil chaste character to appropriately define the issue, if it's a big enough deal.

[redbird]

I note, possibly off topic, that an axis from "chaste" to "slutty" isn't what I'd have expected to see under "sexuality." I think partly that's just terminology, and partly it's that I tend to see those as more a range of decisions a person makes, given whatever desires they have. "Faithful to her husband," for example, covers, inter alia, someone who is deeply emotionally monogamous; someone who doesn't care enough about sex to want another lover, and might not care if her husband joined a celibate order of fighting scholars; someone who doesn't have the energy for more than one partner, because of other priorities; or someone who eyes every third passing youth, but is worried about divine or social punishment if she so much as kisses any of them.

From the writing viewpoint, one question you might look at is what chaste means in this context, and how that interacts with other ethical questions: for example, do your chaste heroes run around judging other people for being more sexually adventurous? Do they consider the chastity to be a virtue in itself, a useful tool for an adventurer (in the same way that the ability to sleep anywhere, or a good solid sleeping bag, is a tool), or just a thing, like happening to have brown hair or a name starting with B?

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

do your chaste heroes run around judging other people for being more sexually adventurous? Do they consider the chastity to be a virtue in itself, a useful tool for an adventurer (in the same way that the ability to sleep anywhere, or a good solid sleeping bag, is a tool), or just a thing, like happening to have brown hair or a name starting with B?

Well, Ffip is chaste, at this point in the book, because:

(1) Nobody will sleep with him. He's not very attractive in terms of body or honor, and his female friends (even childhood sweetheart) are concerned about appearances and their long-term prospects.

(2) He's a blackmailer, and knows better than anyone else alive just how much trouble one can get in by careless affairs.

(3) He manipulated Ikik into committing attempted rape, so he's kinda being careful himself.

Not terribly noble there.

(And, of course, Melyl is chaste because there's nobody in the world that she could be unchaste with. She doesn't seem to care very much about it one way or another.)

[mazlynn.livejournal.com]

You didn't inlcude Nyzhi on your chart - who is he/she, what is her relationship, etc. I'm assuming Nyzhi is the one in a commited relationship, since Ffip is chaste so far.

As for the sexual assault thing - I'd say look at the characters motivation. If it really fits well with the character, and it would make a lot of sense for the character to do that, then go with it. If you have any doubts about it fitting with the character and it truley is a throwaway paragraph and not something that will come back to bite him later, then cut it out (and set it aside in case you decide later that it is a good source of doom).

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

Sexual harassment, and it does fit. It's not clear whether the woman in question is willing or not. She does boast about it a bit later.

None of this is particularly clear-cut in human terms, even when the events are fully described.

The earlier sexual assault is by propositioning his girlfriend, while she's on heat, in a place reserved for women on heat. That's legally attempted rape by abuse of estrous, but it comes off to a human reader as rude and forward rather than evil, and the punishment sounds excessive. The girlfriend is rather pissed, but does try (and fail) to drop the charges.

[vernononfm.livejournal.com]

If that is how it comes across, I would suggest trying to clarify or redescribe the situation so that others understand how evil it is. Other than that, it is very hard for many humans to understand things that come from a perspective that's not from a human's.

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

It's not supposed to look very evil, in-world or out-of-world. Ikik's punishment for it is overly harsh, in most characters' opinions -- including the nominal victim.

[kris-schnee.livejournal.com]

Hard to say since I know little about the story, but: the sexuality of the characters should probably be handled as part of the bigger picture of their morality. It makes sense that a bad guy might (among other things) be an attempted rapist, while a good guy might be loyal to a spouse, because both of those are reflections of the characters' attitudes in general towards respect for others, enlightened self-interest vs. immediate gratification, etc.. Since you're writing about non-humans you could try to portray sexual behavior as something that's usually considered outside the sphere of What Morality Is, but your human audience will probably disagree.

I guess, though, that there should be more options than "chaste or slutty." It'd be possible to portray a polyamorous relationship that's not vilewickednasty, by showing that everyone involved is honest about it and loyal where appropriate. Or a chaste/monogamous relationship that verges on masochism, because the characters stay together out of some warped sense of duty or social convention rather than actual affection.

But if that's how your characters turn out, that's fine! You can build the free-love setting in your next book. 8)