A Digression Upon Ethics And Love; [18 Lage 4385]; Economics of an Evil Wizard [18 Lage 4385]

[sythyry]

Mirrored from Sythyry.

Me: “Well, you are here, and I am here. You have worked a vast betrayal and embezzlement against me and against all who dwell in Castle Wrong. We are outside of any city-state, so there is no law here. So I shall pick a punishment which I think is reasonable, and it shall be done.”

Zascalle: “That’s ridiculous. What hope have I of justice under such circumstances?”

Zascalle is clever, and knows my weak points. This is an easy one to know about, since I fussed about it at dinner after we captured the pirates, among other times.

But she actually has a point. In a city, she could get justice.

1. Cities have laws, governing correct behavior — or behavior that some primes consider to be correct, usually based on some reason or other. In the void, there are no laws. I will do something I consider to be correct. But it will be based on my own sense of the good and the right… which I hope is a reasonable one, but I have no great assurance of that.
2. Cities have courts and magistrates, devoted to the weighing of crimes and consequences, the consideration of mitigating circumstances, the examination of excuses. I am picking my own weighting, consideration, examination … and I am weighting the crime quite heavily, largely ignoring mitigating circumstances, and spitting on the excuses. As I am the victim of the original crime, and the inspirer of the mitigating circumstances, I am surely the worst person on wood to do this. I am likely to be ridiculously harsh … or, knowing me, ridiculously gentle. (I think my plan manages to do both at once.)
3. Cities have guards, excruciators, and executioners, devoted to the careful performance of punishments. Whatever I do, I will do on my own. Will an instant of squeamishness or anger double or halve my considered opinion of what the right punishment is? Probably. How fair is that, even given that my considered opinion is fair? Not.

Ultimately, I am simply a mighty mage who grabbed some people zie has a grudge on out of the middle air, and is working harm upon them according to zir own opinion of what the matter deserves. At that level of abstraction, there is no great difference between me and Oonanau the pirate sorceress of Dossimar, save that I have somehow done a better job persuading myself of the justice of my cause than she did. If that much; she might be a veritable bonstable of self-deception. And I might too … how would I know?

To be sure, there are observers: Kzip La Hish, Nangbang, Sazandigraa. They have abandoned their claims to the situation. They might not have done, if they thought I did not have some claim to justice. But they’re certainly not going to stop me from pronouncing judgment or imposing punishment. At the most, they might stop me from the worst excesses, or they might disapprove of me, speak ill of me to our mutual acquaintances and colleagues and relatives, and such as that.

So I am trying to behave well. I was trying to behave well when I started my affair with Thenel, say, and look how that turned out.

And I am very angry at Zascalle and Thiane. And I continue not to be very forceful or good at imposing my will on people.

Economics of an Evil Wizard [18 Lage 4385]

Zascalle: “Kzip! Are you a good wizard, or an evil wizard?”

Kzip: “I generally fancy myself an evil wizard. Why do you ask?”

Zascalle: “Sythyry is planning terrible things for me! I beg of you, I plead with you, that you destroy zir completely!”

Kzip: “Well, let us consider the matter. I was, until moments ago, somewhat upset with Sythyry. In all honesty I still am; I have merely agreed to accept zir admission of wrongdoing and compensation for running off with my Dorze, but the actual compensation is slightly delayed. Now, I don’t give a flying fig for your quarrel with the blue lizard. Would I try to kill Sythyry over Dorze? Why, I cannot think that I would. While I am, undisputably, an evil wizard, my preferred form of evil is stirring up wars and profiting off of them greatly. Killing Sythyry would not help this brand of evil! If anything, it would cut down on my opportunities to perform it, since Vheshrame is an excellent city to stir up wars with, and, while they have Sythyry and Vae, they are likely to stir up the kind of wars that profit me the most directly.”

Zascalle: “But … I could pay you! I would give you all of Sythyry’s fortune if you destroy zir!”

Me: “That doesn’t leave much money for healing Feralan.”

Kzip: “A tempting offer, and I am sufficiently mercenary to entertain it. But … could I kill Sythyry? Zie came here with a shocking and vulgar display of mystical weaponry, half of which I have never seen before and have no idea what it does. Could I kill zir despite it? Most likely. Would I die in the process, or spend more than four million lozens’ worth of supplies, or take a permanent injury? I should not be surprised. That makes it a poor choice of mercenary engagement.”

Me: “Well, assume Nangbang were on your side.”

Nangbang: “There is currently — for the next several days — no disagreement between Sythyry and myself!”

Me: “There is not! This is merely a thought-experiment. However, assume Saza were on my side.”

Saza: “Always, coz! Always!” Zie twined zir tailtip around mine, and, with a traffly-nervous twitch, I twined back.

Me: “I think that Kzip is ranked the most dangerous one here, Saza the second, myself the third, and Nangbang is ranked a sorcerer rather than a wizard at this point. Not that a sorcerer and high priest of Accanax is anything but a force to be reckoned with.”

Kzip: “That ranking leaves aside the fact that you are bristling with a demi-holocaust of weaponry, and I have nothing but a skeropythrope and a battered old drochsiarch!” She was not quite so unarmed as all that, but less than me.

Me: “Still, the balance is clear enough: Kzip and Nangbang are, very roughly comparable in power and danger to Saza and myself.”

Kzip: “Fair enough, though of course the balancing must be taken with considerable caution. Should I dare such an even and tricky battle for a modest sum of money? One I will have to split with Nangbang, or his next of kin?”

Me: “Which would be Treacle-Eyes, in fact.”

Nangbang: “That is a stupid name. I wish she’d change it already.”

Me: “Another point you may raise with her soon.”

Kzip: “In any case, I reject your offer, Zascalle. An immortal does not get full value out of her immortality talisman by taking risky offers! Sythyry has presented a safer bribe than any you could offer. Still, I do owe you a measure of thanks for plopping yourself into my wicked, wicked hands, giving me a superb bargaining chip for use against zir.”

Zascalle: “Then grant me assistance for doing you that favor!”

Kzip: “Right, then. I promise that, should Ochirion be threatened, I will exert myself somewhat to keep him safe. Seeing as he’s the only one on your side who isn’t an utter scoundrel or a potentially-monster.”

Nangbang: “Ah, it is wonderful to see the evil wizard at work, advancing the cause of wickedness in all ways! Battering down the pillars of justice, sloshing them with naphtha, and setting them ablaze!”

Kzip: “Shush, you, or the next time you’re lying in a shallow grave I’ll conjure up some digging scorch-beetles for you.”

Zascalle: “Alas! I am doomed!”

Kzip: “Like a proper evil wizard — quiet, Nangbang, I shall take no denial — I shall laugh at your doom! “

Me: “You’re a bad parent, too. You’ve managed to give up on both children in this conversation.”

She expressed much fury about that comment. I suppose I had not been terribly pleasant to her so far. And it was about to get considerably worse.

Comments

[shurhaian.livejournal.com]

*hums to himself* It's not just a river in Eeeeeeeegyyyypt...

Ahem. Kzip is seriously starting to amuse me. (This works. Somehow!)

And despite labelling herself as an evil wizard, well... her promise to spend some effort on Ochirion's behalf is somewhat telling. I still think she treated Dorze moderately badly(that's the "exploited her ability to extend his debt" badly, not "heaped mental and physical abuse upon him" badly), but, well, between her and Zascalle, I know whom I'd trust more.

And Zascalle is a bad parent. Perhaps she's only showing at her worst now, but these conversations leave somewhat in doubt just how much she'd have stirred herself for Feralan's treatment. She was certainly willing to abandon all the money that she'd ostensibly obtained for that purpose, in order to save her own skin.

[shurhaian.livejournal.com]

Belatedly - the affair with Thenel started decently enough, on your behalf. That he didn't tell you everything is not your responsibility - if someone offers zir body to you, it shouldn't be up to you to ask "Is this within the acceptable bounds of any relationship you might currently be in?" The parts that were less decent, were entered into in the weakest possible moment - right after an intimacy that reminded both of you how much you enjoyed each other. Not an example of shining morals, no - but not one of vile depravity, either.

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

Can I claim "shining depravity" then?

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

Zascalle was in a terror of despair and anticipated doom; she was certainly not at her best. She could see that I was hesitating, as if I were trying to steel myself to some heinous and horrible act -- which was true enough -- and feared the worst.

She later (to an informant) justified herself by saying that she could not help Feralan if I destroyed her, but if she was free, she would have some chance to do something. Which leaves aside the chance that I would deal with her and still help him. She is not inclined to think well of me.

[stormydragon.livejournal.com]

Shining Depravity (-1): Characterization disadvantage. While your character has would what would generally be considered good motives, they have little sense of social restraint and thus frequently choose methods that would be frowned upon by society for achieving their goals.

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure that "sleeping with a different-species person who is engaged" is quite what would generally be considered good motives...

[stickseed-doom.livejournal.com]

Zascalle is a horrible parent! What other kind of parent would draw upon zirself the wrath of a Zi Ri (or otherwise immortal prime) without first making sure zir children are safe and sound (and possibly disowned, to discourage revenge being extracted from them rather than the erstwise parent)? If being friends with a wizard endangers zir and zir children, surely being enemies with that wizard will be an even greater danger!

Especially when the wizard in question has a pet nendrai which seems quite capable of getting itself involved in prime business regardless of whether the primes intend to involve it or not.

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

I'm not going to hurt the children! Really!

Not that I've done very well at that so far, of course.

[shurhaian.livejournal.com]

It may not be "good motives" in the heroic sense, but "mutual pleasure and no harm to anyone" isn't a BAD motive.

[stickseed-doom.livejournal.com]

But does not Zascalle claim that she robbed you out of fear for the safety of her children? So if she was any kind of parent other than the horrible sort, she would have made sure they were not feasible targets before making an enemy out of you. Even if you don't want to hurt the children! Because she says she thought you would!

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

She might say she was trying to when she took them thousands of miles away. I fear she was not entirely at her best when I caught up with her, though.

[stickseed-doom.livejournal.com]

But that was after she unwisely robbed her benevolent if Doom-stalked benefactor! With that logic she might as well have hidden in Dossimar for all the good she's doing her children.

[shurhaian.livejournal.com]

So she relieves you of your fortune(some of which would have gone to curing Feralan, to say nothing of time, effort, and expertise, as soon as you actually knew something worth trying) and proceeds to demonize you to anyone who'll listen.

Hmmm.

Also, considering how willing she is to play on (or should I say prey on) your good nature, I find it hard to believe that she really thought you capable of that much atrocity. One can't have it both ways(unless, perhaps, one is a bonstable).

It's rather bizarre, really, how heavily she will denounce you and your aims, while turning around and deliberately using your better nature as a shield(perhaps an ineffectual one, but not because you would e.g. smash through Ochirion to get at her - only because you wouldn't need to). She is either deliberately calculating or outright delusional, or some measure of both(even in her delusion there is too much calculation for that to be entirely absent).

There is a notion on this world - I can't remember an exact turn of phrase around it. But when you've already dug yourself six feet down(the depth at which the deceased are traditionally buried in a certain common mode of funerary rites), it's time to stop digging. Zascalle is still applying that shovel with a will.

[shurhaian.livejournal.com]

And for the last bit, I mean in terms of morality, more than the doom she's bought herself(though she may well be doing that too).

[shurhaian.livejournal.com]

At least Sythyry is unlikely to want to hang around there!

The thing that gets me is that Zascalle is not only being irrational, she's doing so in an incredibly small-minded and selfish manner. Through this entire conversation, she hasn't shown a jot of concern for her children that wasn't self-serving, not that I can see. What happened to her deep and desperate love and concern for them? It's not in evidence now.

Frankly, the harm done to the children is looking more like an excuse, or at most a reminder of the harm that could be done to her, than any honest motivation on its own.

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

[She's a reasonably smart person in an utter panic. -bb]

[shurhaian.livejournal.com]

[It's not her intelligence I question, but her motives.]

[rowyn]

I'm not sure Kzip's treatment of Dorze was particularly bad, given the expectations of her society. Yes, she gave Dorze extra spells to graft, which increased his indenture -- but also his potential future income when his indenture was complete. For that matter, it increased his earning potential during the indenture, of which he received a percentage. For all we know, it might have shortened his indenture in the long term, once he'd gotten to scribing and selling the new spells.

This is not so say that I approve of indenturing in general, or of Kzip in particular. She's an unreasonable sort of person and I doubt she believes for an instant that Sythyry ever wanted Dorze; zie's just a convenient way for her to recoup her investment. She's not particularly evil, but she's surely not good. More self-centered and indifferent, I'd guess.

[mmsword.livejournal.com]

This seems to be common among folks with immortality amulets.

[shurhaian.livejournal.com]

Oh, no, I concede that she's not been a horrible and abusive master in that regard.

His earning potential wouldn't mean much, though, when anything he earns is also all he has with which to pay off his bond. Arbitrarily having him learn more spells(and being indebted for them) was not a very nice thing to do. Perhaps La Hish would have stuck by her promise to not have him learn more - perhaps not; we'll never know, now.

I think it possible that she had her own pet theory of why Dorze had been missing and turned up on Sythyry's skyboat. As soon as that letter said "he's on my skyboat", all the details became irrelevant. Perhaps not with subsequent thought, but... anyway, it's quite irrelevant now; extorting Sythyry for a sizeable chunk of money is indeed not a nice move.

But I never meant to say that La Hish was an utter harridan for her treatment of Dorze, either. Just underhanded.

[shurhaian.livejournal.com]

They had to acquire those talismans somehow. One way, as has been previously discussed, is to be a wizard's assistant. One way is to get the skill oneself - and not all skilled wizards want to get up at dawn every day, even those who aren't Zi Ri.

And then there's the option of being ruthless enough in the means you use to earn money that you can pay exorbitant sums to an enchanter...

[rowyn]

*giggles* I like that one!

[rowyn]

But that's it -- I'm not sure she *was* underhanded. For all I know, it's normal and expected to have your indentured spell scribes learn a bunch of expensive spells which make them further indebted, but earn you (and them) more money in the long run. Rather like the way paying for law school looks worse and worse every year as you get deeper and deeper in debt, until you finally graduate and make a lot of money, and after 15 years, you're richer than you would've been if you'd spent the same 15 years at an assembly line job.

Now, certainly indentured servitude is far worse than college debt. I'm not defending the practice! And La Hish may have been abusing the practice. Or she may have been doing exactly what was normal for the situation, and not especially bad for Dorze. Eg, let's say her initial contract for Dorze was 20,000 lozens. If she has him sweep floors for 5 lozens a day, he can pay that off in about 16 WT years. Or if she can give him another 50,000 lozens in expensive spells to graft, but now he can earn 30 lozens a day (for himself). Superficially, he looks worse off -- he's 70,000 lozens in debt now! -- but ultimately he'd be free sooner. The way Treacle-Eyes and Dorze described it suggested they thought that wasn't what was happening, but they weren't highly motivated to be consider La Hish's actions favorably. And spell-selling is a matter of market demand, so if she'd happened to pick spells not much in demand right then he wouldn't have seen an income increase yet.

It's just not clear to me what was actually going on. So I'm reserving judgement on whether La Hish was truly taking advantage of him or not.

[shurhaian.livejournal.com]

I think it was described at the time as something along the lines of "it's rather steep, but we [Sythyry and Phaniet] have both known worse". The chief problem was that La Hish could have him increase his debt arbitrarily - if she so chose, she could keep Dorze locked in bond for life, and there wouldn't be much he could do about it. As it is, she was never given a chance to keep or break her promise about not having him learn any more spells. Combine that with his abysmal return on each spell scribed(I believe free scribe rates were 43%, vs his 2%), and the complexity of the spells he was being scribed, and, well... It's dubious, whether or not the extra spells in his repertoire could have made up for the time he couldn't sell them at full rates.

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

My impression, based on Kantele and Phaniet making a few inquiries, is that Kzip was being about as exploitative as she could get away with without anyone important doing more than muttering about her a bit. Which is consistent with Kzip's other business dealings.

As an indenture-holder several times over ... I will note that it is a flexible and powerful social bond that binds both parties, and, when used properly, is of considerable benefit to the indentured one. Blenny, Este, and Umbers, I think, will agree; at least they seem generally pleased. I am not sure if I would know if Blenny were not. But Este is ~married~ to Phaniet, and I hear of his slightest concern within a day.

Of course it can be used cruelly or wickedly -- I hope to use the difference between these two facets. But the same can be said of, say, maternity, or engagement, or loyalty, or friendship, or love. I hope you regard these as generally valuable things!